On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:10:32 -0400, pookie <jahselassieI@toast.net> wrote:
>Hi Bill, I'm with you. I have attended meetings that were 12-step meetings,
>and they were religious, but they were not AA or NA. There are churches
>where people are invited to come and work on their addiction with other
>Christians, and although they loosely base themselves on AA, they are not.
>They write their own 12 steps and have their own ways of doing things, all
>based on God as He is understood by Christians. I've never seen any praying
>in AA meetings, or anything resembling a Christian worship service, so I

You've never seen praying at an AA meeting? Then you've never been to an AA
meeting as they ALL start and close with prayer. Serenity prayer at the start
and lord's prayer (protestant version, hand holding and all) at the end.
If the community is god-soaked then so are the meetings. I got tired of
listening to idiots who would babble that if they went through three green
lights then it was an act of gawd.

> "wozza" <wozza96@_NO_SPAM_yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:42b68d46$0$13943$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...
>> "rosie read n' post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:iuite.16267$lI2.7345@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>> > RELIGION is for those who are afraid of hell..................
>> > SPIRITUALITY is for those who have been there!
>> >
>> >
>> > imo, AA is not a religion.
>>
>>
>> Unfortunately, your opinion counts for zilch, but the opinions of are
> worth
>> taking notice.
>>
>> A.A. claims that it is a "spiritual" organization, and not
> "religious", and
>> not a religion, but there is no great difference between the words
>> "religious" and "spiritual." The distinction is artificial -- just
> another
>> deceptive word game.
>>
>> In the case of Grandberg v. Ashland County, a 1984 Federal 7th Circuit
> Court
>> ruling concerning judicially-mandated A.A. attendance, the court said:
>>
>> Alcoholics Anonymous materials and the testimony of the witness
> established
>> beyond a doubt that religious activities, as defined in constitutional
> law,
>> were a part of the treatment program. The distinction between religion
> and
>> spirituality is meaningless, and serves merely to confuse the issue.
>> -- Wisconsin's District Judge John Shabaz
>>
>> All of these courts have ruled that Alcoholics Anonymous is a religion
> or
>> engages in religious activities:
>>
>> the Federal 7th Circuit Court in Wisconsin, 1984.
>> the Federal District Court for Southern New York, 1994.
>> the New York Court of Appeals, 1996.
>> the New York State Supreme Court, 1996.
>> the U.S. Supreme Court, 1997.
>> the Tennessee State Supreme Court.
>> the Federal 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals in New York, 1996.
>> the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit.
>> the U.S. Court of Appeals, Seventh District, 1996.
>> the Federal Appeals Court in Chicago, 1996.
>>
>> The United States Supreme Court has refused to hear challenges to
> those
>> rulings, or to change or over-turn those lower court decisions. By
> letting
>> them stand, the Supreme Court has made them the law of the land.
>>
>> But there is one very important exception to that statement -- the
> Griffin
>> v. Coughlin decision, from the New York State Court of Appeals, 1996,
> was
>> heard by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1997.
>>
>> In Griffin v. Coughlin, the prison inmate David Griffin complained
> that
>> state prison officials in 1991 told David Griffin, a self-described
> atheist
>> with a history of drug abuse, that in order to be eligible for
> expanded
>> family visitation privileges, including conjugal visits, he would have
> to
>> attend a prison rehabilitation program patterned after AA's 12-step
> model.2
>>
>> Griffin, then a prisoner at the Shawangunk Correctional Facility in
> Ulster
>> County, refused to attend the program, contending that the 12-step
> approach
>> requires participants to express a belief in a "power greater than
>> ourselves" and to "turn our will and our lives over to the care of God
> as we
>> understood him." These requirements, his lawsuit against the state
>> contended, violate the First Amendment's mandated separation of church
> and
>> state.
>>
>> Griffin lost in two lower courts, but won in New York State's highest
> court,
>> the New York Court of Appeals.
>>
>> In Griffin v. Coughlin, Judge Levine, writing for the court's
> majority,
>> concluded that the AA program is devoted to proselytizing for a
> religious
>> belief. The court's conclusion was based on its reading of several
> profiles
>> of early AA members as they are set forth in the AA Big Book and the
> AA
>> Twelve and Twelve.
>>
>> Judge Levine said "While it is of course true that the primary
> objective of
>> A.A. is to enable its adherents to achieve sobriety, its doctrine
>> unmistakably urges that the path to staying sober and to becoming
> happily
>> and usefully whole is by wholeheartedly embracing traditional theistic
>> beliefs."
>>
>> From its review of AA literature, the majority concluded that the AA
> Twelve
>> Steps amount to a worship service and that the AA fellowship is
> dedicated to
>> converting alcoholics to a belief in a traditional deity. Accordingly,
> the
>> court found that, "The foregoing demonstrates beyond peradventure that
>> doctrinally and as actually practiced in the 12-step methodology,
> adherence
>> to the A.A. fellowship entails engagement in religious activity and
>> religious proselytization. Followers are urged to accept the existence
> of
>> God as a Supreme Being, Creator, Father of Light and Spirit of the
>> Universe."
>>
>> When the U.S. Supreme Court heard the appeal, it sided with the
> atheist
>> convict who said the New York Department of Corrections' attempt to
> link
>> extra privileges for inmates with attendance at meetings modeled after
>> Alcoholics Anonymous violated the constitutionally mandated separation
> of
>> church and state.3
>>
>> On November 14, 1999 the U.S. Supreme Court refused to overturn, thus
>> allowed to stand, a ruling by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second
>> Circuit ordering that forced attendance at Narcotics Anonymous
> meetings end
>> immediately, because it was a violation of Freedom of Religion. The
> U.S.
>> Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit and the high courts of the
> states
>> of Tennessee and New York have also made the same ruling.
>>
>> -- quoted from http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-spirrel.html
>>


> you clearly have your opinions, as i have mine..........................
> with the help of AA and my HP i will celebrate 23yrs of sobriety in
> august.
> AA has helped me to have a whole new life.

Sorry, I really botched the first line. What I meant to say was the opinions
of the courts are what matter, because they make the laws. Then I quoted
someone else's summary of many court decisions where AA was ruled to be a
religion. Note no court anywhere has ever ruled AA is not a religion.

I'm glad AA has helped you have a whole new life. The steps work well for
the lucky few for whom they work well. But what I care about is for every
one of you, there are 20 who aren't helped. That's the tragedy of AA's
religious program.

spiritual




spir·i·tu·al [ spírrichoo ?l ]


adjective

1. of soul: relating to the soul or spirit, usually in
contrast to material things


2. of religion: relating to religious or sacred things
rather than worldly things


3. temperamentally or intellectually akin: connected by an
affinity of the mind, spirit, or temperament
spiritual mother of the young artist


4. refined: showing great refinement and concern with the
higher things in life





re·li·gion [ ri líjj?n ] (plural re·li·gions)


noun

1. beliefs and worship: people's beliefs and
opinions concerning the existence, nature, and worship of a deity or
deities, and divine involvement in the universe and human life


2. system: an institutionalized or personal
system of beliefs and practices relating to the divine


3. personal beliefs or values: a set of
strongly-held beliefs, values, and attitudes that somebody lives by




There is a difference






















Encarta® World English Dictionary [North American Edition] © & (P)2005
Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Developed for Microsoft by
Bloomsbury Publishing Plc.

More Links from Our Advertisers
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----- Original Message -----
From: "wozza" <wozza96@_NO_SPAM_yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: alt.recovery.addiction.alcoholism
Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2005 4:56 AM
Subject: Re: Jews and the 12-step program


>> "wozza" <wozza96@_NO_SPAM_yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:42b68d46$0$13943$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...
>>> "rosie read n' post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> news:iuite.16267$lI2.7345@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>>> > RELIGION is for those who are afraid of hell..................
>>> > SPIRITUALITY is for those who have been there!
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > imo, AA is not a religion.
>>>
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, your opinion counts for zilch, but the opinions of are
>> worth
>>> taking notice.
>>>
>>> A.A. claims that it is a "spiritual" organization, and not
>> "religious", and
>>> not a religion, but there is no great difference between the words
>>> "religious" and "spiritual." The distinction is artificial -- just
>> another
>>> deceptive word game.
>>>
>>> In the case of Grandberg v. Ashland County, a 1984 Federal 7th Circuit
>> Court
>>> ruling concerning judicially-mandated A.A. attendance, the court said:
>>>
>>> Alcoholics Anonymous materials and the testimony of the witness
>> established
>>> beyond a doubt that religious activities, as defined in constitutional
>> law,
>>> were a part of the treatment program. The distinction between religion
>> and
>>> spirituality is meaningless, and serves merely to confuse the issue.
>>> -- Wisconsin's District Judge John Shabaz
>>>
>>> All of these courts have ruled that Alcoholics Anonymous is a religion
>> or
>>> engages in religious activities:
>>>
>>> the Federal 7th Circuit Court in Wisconsin, 1984.
>>> the Federal District Court for Southern New York, 1994.
>>> the New York Court of Appeals, 1996.
>>> the New York State Supreme Court, 1996.
>>> the U.S. Supreme Court, 1997.
>>> the Tennessee State Supreme Court.
>>> the Federal 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals in New York, 1996.
>>> the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit.
>>> the U.S. Court of Appeals, Seventh District, 1996.
>>> the Federal Appeals Court in Chicago, 1996.
>>>
>>> The United States Supreme Court has refused to hear challenges to
>> those
>>> rulings, or to change or over-turn those lower court decisions. By
>> letting
>>> them stand, the Supreme Court has made them the law of the land.
>>>
>>> But there is one very important exception to that statement -- the
>> Griffin
>>> v. Coughlin decision, from the New York State Court of Appeals, 1996,
>> was
>>> heard by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1997.
>>>
>>> In Griffin v. Coughlin, the prison inmate David Griffin complained
>> that
>>> state prison officials in 1991 told David Griffin, a self-described
>> atheist
>>> with a history of drug abuse, that in order to be eligible for
>> expanded
>>> family visitation privileges, including conjugal visits, he would have
>> to
>>> attend a prison rehabilitation program patterned after AA's 12-step
>> model.2
>>>
>>> Griffin, then a prisoner at the Shawangunk Correctional Facility in
>> Ulster
>>> County, refused to attend the program, contending that the 12-step
>> approach
>>> requires participants to express a belief in a "power greater than
>>> ourselves" and to "turn our will and our lives over to the care of God
>> as we
>>> understood him." These requirements, his lawsuit against the state
>>> contended, violate the First Amendment's mandated separation of church
>> and
>>> state.
>>>
>>> Griffin lost in two lower courts, but won in New York State's highest
>> court,
>>> the New York Court of Appeals.
>>>
>>> In Griffin v. Coughlin, Judge Levine, writing for the court's
>> majority,
>>> concluded that the AA program is devoted to proselytizing for a
>> religious
>>> belief. The court's conclusion was based on its reading of several
>> profiles
>>> of early AA members as they are set forth in the AA Big Book and the
>> AA
>>> Twelve and Twelve.
>>>
>>> Judge Levine said "While it is of course true that the primary
>> objective of
>>> A.A. is to enable its adherents to achieve sobriety, its doctrine
>>> unmistakably urges that the path to staying sober and to becoming
>> happily
>>> and usefully whole is by wholeheartedly embracing traditional theistic
>>> beliefs."
>>>
>>> From its review of AA literature, the majority concluded that the AA
>> Twelve
>>> Steps amount to a worship service and that the AA fellowship is
>> dedicated to
>>> converting alcoholics to a belief in a traditional deity. Accordingly,
>> the
>>> court found that, "The foregoing demonstrates beyond peradventure that
>>> doctrinally and as actually practiced in the 12-step methodology,
>> adherence
>>> to the A.A. fellowship entails engagement in religious activity and
>>> religious proselytization. Followers are urged to accept the existence
>> of
>>> God as a Supreme Being, Creator, Father of Light and Spirit of the
>>> Universe."
>>>
>>> When the U.S. Supreme Court heard the appeal, it sided with the
>> atheist
>>> convict who said the New York Department of Corrections' attempt to
>> link
>>> extra privileges for inmates with attendance at meetings modeled after
>>> Alcoholics Anonymous violated the constitutionally mandated separation
>> of
>>> church and state.3
>>>
>>> On November 14, 1999 the U.S. Supreme Court refused to overturn, thus
>>> allowed to stand, a ruling by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second
>>> Circuit ordering that forced attendance at Narcotics Anonymous
>> meetings end
>>> immediately, because it was a violation of Freedom of Religion. The
>> U.S.
>>> Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit and the high courts of the
>> states
>>> of Tennessee and New York have also made the same ruling.
>>>
>>> -- quoted from http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-spirrel.html
>>>
>
>
>> you clearly have your opinions, as i have mine..........................
>> with the help of AA and my HP i will celebrate 23yrs of sobriety in
>> august.
>> AA has helped me to have a whole new life.
>
> Sorry, I really botched the first line. What I meant to say was the
> opinions of the courts are what matter, because they make the laws. Then I
> quoted someone else's summary of many court decisions where AA was ruled
> to be a religion. Note no court anywhere has ever ruled AA is not a
> religion.
>
> I'm glad AA has helped you have a whole new life. The steps work well for
> the lucky few for whom they work well. But what I care about is for every
> one of you, there are 20 who aren't helped. That's the tragedy of AA's
> religious program.
>

"wozza" <wozza96@_NO_SPAM_yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:42ba8916$0$24005$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...
>> "wozza" <wozza96@_NO_SPAM_yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:42b68d46$0$13943$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...
>>> "rosie read n' post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> news:iuite.16267$lI2.7345@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>>> > RELIGION is for those who are afraid of hell..................
>>> > SPIRITUALITY is for those who have been there!
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > imo, AA is not a religion.
>>>
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, your opinion counts for zilch, but the opinions of are
>> worth
>>> taking notice.
>>>
>>> A.A. claims that it is a "spiritual" organization, and not
>> "religious", and
>>> not a religion, but there is no great difference between the words
>>> "religious" and "spiritual." The distinction is artificial -- just
>> another
>>> deceptive word game.
>>>
>>> In the case of Grandberg v. Ashland County, a 1984 Federal 7th Circuit
>> Court
>>> ruling concerning judicially-mandated A.A. attendance, the court said:
>>>
>>> Alcoholics Anonymous materials and the testimony of the witness
>> established
>>> beyond a doubt that religious activities, as defined in constitutional
>> law,
>>> were a part of the treatment program. The distinction between religion
>> and
>>> spirituality is meaningless, and serves merely to confuse the issue.
>>> -- Wisconsin's District Judge John Shabaz
>>>
>>> All of these courts have ruled that Alcoholics Anonymous is a religion
>> or
>>> engages in religious activities:
>>>
>>> the Federal 7th Circuit Court in Wisconsin, 1984.
>>> the Federal District Court for Southern New York, 1994.
>>> the New York Court of Appeals, 1996.
>>> the New York State Supreme Court, 1996.
>>> the U.S. Supreme Court, 1997.
>>> the Tennessee State Supreme Court.
>>> the Federal 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals in New York, 1996.
>>> the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit.
>>> the U.S. Court of Appeals, Seventh District, 1996.
>>> the Federal Appeals Court in Chicago, 1996.
>>>
>>> The United States Supreme Court has refused to hear challenges to
>> those
>>> rulings, or to change or over-turn those lower court decisions. By
>> letting
>>> them stand, the Supreme Court has made them the law of the land.
>>>
>>> But there is one very important exception to that statement -- the
>> Griffin
>>> v. Coughlin decision, from the New York State Court of Appeals, 1996,
>> was
>>> heard by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1997.
>>>
>>> In Griffin v. Coughlin, the prison inmate David Griffin complained
>> that
>>> state prison officials in 1991 told David Griffin, a self-described
>> atheist
>>> with a history of drug abuse, that in order to be eligible for
>> expanded
>>> family visitation privileges, including conjugal visits, he would have
>> to
>>> attend a prison rehabilitation program patterned after AA's 12-step
>> model.2
>>>
>>> Griffin, then a prisoner at the Shawangunk Correctional Facility in
>> Ulster
>>> County, refused to attend the program, contending that the 12-step
>> approach
>>> requires participants to express a belief in a "power greater than
>>> ourselves" and to "turn our will and our lives over to the care of God
>> as we
>>> understood him." These requirements, his lawsuit against the state
>>> contended, violate the First Amendment's mandated separation of church
>> and
>>> state.
>>>
>>> Griffin lost in two lower courts, but won in New York State's highest
>> court,
>>> the New York Court of Appeals.
>>>
>>> In Griffin v. Coughlin, Judge Levine, writing for the court's
>> majority,
>>> concluded that the AA program is devoted to proselytizing for a
>> religious
>>> belief. The court's conclusion was based on its reading of several
>> profiles
>>> of early AA members as they are set forth in the AA Big Book and the
>> AA
>>> Twelve and Twelve.
>>>
>>> Judge Levine said "While it is of course true that the primary
>> objective of
>>> A.A. is to enable its adherents to achieve sobriety, its doctrine
>>> unmistakably urges that the path to staying sober and to becoming
>> happily
>>> and usefully whole is by wholeheartedly embracing traditional theistic
>>> beliefs."
>>>
>>> From its review of AA literature, the majority concluded that the AA
>> Twelve
>>> Steps amount to a worship service and that the AA fellowship is
>> dedicated to
>>> converting alcoholics to a belief in a traditional deity. Accordingly,
>> the
>>> court found that, "The foregoing demonstrates beyond peradventure that
>>> doctrinally and as actually practiced in the 12-step methodology,
>> adherence
>>> to the A.A. fellowship entails engagement in religious activity and
>>> religious proselytization. Followers are urged to accept the existence
>> of
>>> God as a Supreme Being, Creator, Father of Light and Spirit of the
>>> Universe."
>>>
>>> When the U.S. Supreme Court heard the appeal, it sided with the
>> atheist
>>> convict who said the New York Department of Corrections' attempt to
>> link
>>> extra privileges for inmates with attendance at meetings modeled after
>>> Alcoholics Anonymous violated the constitutionally mandated separation
>> of
>>> church and state.3
>>>
>>> On November 14, 1999 the U.S. Supreme Court refused to overturn, thus
>>> allowed to stand, a ruling by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second
>>> Circuit ordering that forced attendance at Narcotics Anonymous
>> meetings end
>>> immediately, because it was a violation of Freedom of Religion. The
>> U.S.
>>> Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit and the high courts of the
>> states
>>> of Tennessee and New York have also made the same ruling.
>>>
>>> -- quoted from http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-spirrel.html
>>>
>
>
>> you clearly have your opinions, as i have mine..........................
>> with the help of AA and my HP i will celebrate 23yrs of sobriety in
>> august.
>> AA has helped me to have a whole new life.
>
> Sorry, I really botched the first line. What I meant to say was the
> opinions of the courts are what matter, because they make the laws. Then I
> quoted someone else's summary of many court decisions where AA was ruled
> to be a religion. Note no court anywhere has ever ruled AA is not a
> religion.
>
> I'm glad AA has helped you have a whole new life. The steps work well for
> the lucky few for whom they work well. But what I care about is for every
> one of you, there are 20 who aren't helped. That's the tragedy of AA's
> religious program.
>

tell it to the judge...

did you read what I posted? Could you really not understand it?. Here it is
again in case you missed it:
In the case of Grandberg v. Ashland County, a 1984 Federal 7th Circuit Court
ruling concerning judicially-mandated A.A. attendance, the court said:
"Alcoholics Anonymous materials and the testimony of the witness established
beyond a doubt that religious activities, as defined in constitutional law,
were a part of the treatment program. The distinction between religion and
spirituality is meaningless, and serves merely to confuse the issue." --
Wisconsin's District Judge John Shabaz

Which part of that do you not understand?

What about your own definition? Did you not read it before you posted it?
The second sense of spiritual actually does say, religious. All three senses
of religion you quoted sum up AA pretty well. If really "there is a
difference", you won't find it in AA.

Came to believe in a power greater than ourselves?
Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God?
Admitted to God our wrongs?
Humbly asked Him?
Sought through prayer and medition to improve our conscious contact?
Knowledge of his will? Power to carry that out?
Having had a spiritual awakening?

Much better to take this advice from the big book:
"Upon therapy for the alcoholic himself, surely we have no monopoly"
"Our book is meant to be suggestive only. We realise we know only a little"


"Rob & Laura Frazier" <rflf@machlink.com> wrote in message
news:11cuqcc8ok5g1f0@corp.supernews.com...
> spiritual
>
>
>
>
> spir·i·tu·al [ spírrichoo ?l ]
>
>
> adjective
>
> 1. of soul: relating to the soul or spirit, usually in
> contrast to material things
>
>
> 2. of religion: relating to religious or sacred things
> rather than worldly things
>
>
> 3. temperamentally or intellectually akin: connected by
> an
> affinity of the mind, spirit, or temperament
> spiritual mother of the young artist
>
>
> 4. refined: showing great refinement and concern with the
> higher things in life
>
>
>
>
>
> re·li·gion [ ri líjj?n ] (plural re·li·gions)
>
>
> noun
>
> 1. beliefs and worship: people's beliefs and
> opinions concerning the existence, nature, and worship of a deity or
> deities, and divine involvement in the universe and human life
>
>
> 2. system: an institutionalized or personal
> system of beliefs and practices relating to the divine
>
>
> 3. personal beliefs or values: a set of
> strongly-held beliefs, values, and attitudes that somebody lives by
>
>
>
>
> There is a difference
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Encarta® World English Dictionary [North American Edition] © &
> (P)2005
> Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Developed for Microsoft by
> Bloomsbury Publishing Plc.
>
> More Links from Our Advertisers
> SAT Prep
> Distance Learning
> Education Online
> Tutoring
> Online MBA
> Textbook
>
> >>Back to more links from Our Advertisers
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "wozza" <wozza96@_NO_SPAM_yahoo.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.recovery.addiction.alcoholism
> Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2005 4:56 AM
> Subject: Re: Jews and the 12-step program
>
>
>>> "wozza" <wozza96@_NO_SPAM_yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> news:42b68d46$0$13943$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...
>>>> "rosie read n' post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:iuite.16267$lI2.7345@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>>>> > RELIGION is for those who are afraid of hell..................
>>>> > SPIRITUALITY is for those who have been there!
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > imo, AA is not a religion.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately, your opinion counts for zilch, but the opinions of are
>>> worth
>>>> taking notice.
>>>>
>>>> A.A. claims that it is a "spiritual" organization, and not
>>> "religious", and
>>>> not a religion, but there is no great difference between the words
>>>> "religious" and "spiritual." The distinction is artificial -- just
>>> another
>>>> deceptive word game.
>>>>
>>>> In the case of Grandberg v. Ashland County, a 1984 Federal 7th Circuit
>>> Court
>>>> ruling concerning judicially-mandated A.A. attendance, the court said:
>>>>
>>>> Alcoholics Anonymous materials and the testimony of the witness
>>> established
>>>> beyond a doubt that religious activities, as defined in constitutional
>>> law,
>>>> were a part of the treatment program. The distinction between religion
>>> and
>>>> spirituality is meaningless, and serves merely to confuse the issue.
>>>> -- Wisconsin's District Judge John Shabaz
>>>>
>>>> All of these courts have ruled that Alcoholics Anonymous is a religion
>>> or
>>>> engages in religious activities:
>>>>
>>>> the Federal 7th Circuit Court in Wisconsin, 1984.
>>>> the Federal District Court for Southern New York, 1994.
>>>> the New York Court of Appeals, 1996.
>>>> the New York State Supreme Court, 1996.
>>>> the U.S. Supreme Court, 1997.
>>>> the Tennessee State Supreme Court.
>>>> the Federal 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals in New York, 1996.
>>>> the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit.
>>>> the U.S. Court of Appeals, Seventh District, 1996.
>>>> the Federal Appeals Court in Chicago, 1996.
>>>>
>>>> The United States Supreme Court has refused to hear challenges to
>>> those
>>>> rulings, or to change or over-turn those lower court decisions. By
>>> letting
>>>> them stand, the Supreme Court has made them the law of the land.
>>>>
>>>> But there is one very important exception to that statement -- the
>>> Griffin
>>>> v. Coughlin decision, from the New York State Court of Appeals, 1996,
>>> was
>>>> heard by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1997.
>>>>
>>>> In Griffin v. Coughlin, the prison inmate David Griffin complained
>>> that
>>>> state prison officials in 1991 told David Griffin, a self-described
>>> atheist
>>>> with a history of drug abuse, that in order to be eligible for
>>> expanded
>>>> family visitation privileges, including conjugal visits, he would have
>>> to
>>>> attend a prison rehabilitation program patterned after AA's 12-step
>>> model.2
>>>>
>>>> Griffin, then a prisoner at the Shawangunk Correctional Facility in
>>> Ulster
>>>> County, refused to attend the program, contending that the 12-step
>>> approach
>>>> requires participants to express a belief in a "power greater than
>>>> ourselves" and to "turn our will and our lives over to the care of God
>>> as we
>>>> understood him." These requirements, his lawsuit against the state
>>>> contended, violate the First Amendment's mandated separation of church
>>> and
>>>> state.
>>>>
>>>> Griffin lost in two lower courts, but won in New York State's highest
>>> court,
>>>> the New York Court of Appeals.
>>>>
>>>> In Griffin v. Coughlin, Judge Levine, writing for the court's
>>> majority,
>>>> concluded that the AA program is devoted to proselytizing for a
>>> religious
>>>> belief. The court's conclusion was based on its reading of several
>>> profiles
>>>> of early AA members as they are set forth in the AA Big Book and the
>>> AA
>>>> Twelve and Twelve.
>>>>
>>>> Judge Levine said "While it is of course true that the primary
>>> objective of
>>>> A.A. is to enable its adherents to achieve sobriety, its doctrine
>>>> unmistakably urges that the path to staying sober and to becoming
>>> happily
>>>> and usefully whole is by wholeheartedly embracing traditional theistic
>>>> beliefs."
>>>>
>>>> From its review of AA literature, the majority concluded that the AA
>>> Twelve
>>>> Steps amount to a worship service and that the AA fellowship is
>>> dedicated to
>>>> converting alcoholics to a belief in a traditional deity. Accordingly,
>>> the
>>>> court found that, "The foregoing demonstrates beyond peradventure that
>>>> doctrinally and as actually practiced in the 12-step methodology,
>>> adherence
>>>> to the A.A. fellowship entails engagement in religious activity and
>>>> religious proselytization. Followers are urged to accept the existence
>>> of
>>>> God as a Supreme Being, Creator, Father of Light and Spirit of the
>>>> Universe."
>>>>
>>>> When the U.S. Supreme Court heard the appeal, it sided with the
>>> atheist
>>>> convict who said the New York Department of Corrections' attempt to
>>> link
>>>> extra privileges for inmates with attendance at meetings modeled after
>>>> Alcoholics Anonymous violated the constitutionally mandated separation
>>> of
>>>> church and state.3
>>>>
>>>> On November 14, 1999 the U.S. Supreme Court refused to overturn, thus
>>>> allowed to stand, a ruling by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second
>>>> Circuit ordering that forced attendance at Narcotics Anonymous
>>> meetings end
>>>> immediately, because it was a violation of Freedom of Religion. The
>>> U.S.
>>>> Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit and the high courts of the
>>> states
>>>> of Tennessee and New York have also made the same ruling.
>>>>
>>>> -- quoted from http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-spirrel.html
>>>>
>>
>>
>>> you clearly have your opinions, as i have mine..........................
>>> with the help of AA and my HP i will celebrate 23yrs of sobriety in
>>> august.
>>> AA has helped me to have a whole new life.
>>
>> Sorry, I really botched the first line. What I meant to say was the
>> opinions of the courts are what matter, because they make the laws. Then
>> I
>> quoted someone else's summary of many court decisions where AA was ruled
>> to be a religion. Note no court anywhere has ever ruled AA is not a
>> religion.
>>
>> I'm glad AA has helped you have a whole new life. The steps work well for
>> the lucky few for whom they work well. But what I care about is for every
>> one of you, there are 20 who aren't helped. That's the tragedy of AA's
>> religious program.
>>
>
> "wozza" <wozza96@_NO_SPAM_yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:42ba8916$0$24005$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...
>>> "wozza" <wozza96@_NO_SPAM_yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> news:42b68d46$0$13943$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...
>>>> "rosie read n' post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:iuite.16267$lI2.7345@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>>>> > RELIGION is for those who are afraid of hell..................
>>>> > SPIRITUALITY is for those who have been there!
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > imo, AA is not a religion.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately, your opinion counts for zilch, but the opinions of are
>>> worth
>>>> taking notice.
>>>>
>>>> A.A. claims that it is a "spiritual" organization, and not
>>> "religious", and
>>>> not a religion, but there is no great difference between the words
>>>> "religious" and "spiritual." The distinction is artificial -- just
>>> another
>>>> deceptive word game.
>>>>
>>>> In the case of Grandberg v. Ashland County, a 1984 Federal 7th Circuit
>>> Court
>>>> ruling concerning judicially-mandated A.A. attendance, the court said:
>>>>
>>>> Alcoholics Anonymous materials and the testimony of the witness
>>> established
>>>> beyond a doubt that religious activities, as defined in constitutional
>>> law,
>>>> were a part of the treatment program. The distinction between religion
>>> and
>>>> spirituality is meaningless, and serves merely to confuse the issue.
>>>> -- Wisconsin's District Judge John Shabaz
>>>>
>>>> All of these courts have ruled that Alcoholics Anonymous is a religion
>>> or
>>>> engages in religious activities:
>>>>
>>>> the Federal 7th Circuit Court in Wisconsin, 1984.
>>>> the Federal District Court for Southern New York, 1994.
>>>> the New York Court of Appeals, 1996.
>>>> the New York State Supreme Court, 1996.
>>>> the U.S. Supreme Court, 1997.
>>>> the Tennessee State Supreme Court.
>>>> the Federal 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals in New York, 1996.
>>>> the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit.
>>>> the U.S. Court of Appeals, Seventh District, 1996.
>>>> the Federal Appeals Court in Chicago, 1996.
>>>>
>>>> The United States Supreme Court has refused to hear challenges to
>>> those
>>>> rulings, or to change or over-turn those lower court decisions. By
>>> letting
>>>> them stand, the Supreme Court has made them the law of the land.
>>>>
>>>> But there is one very important exception to that statement -- the
>>> Griffin
>>>> v. Coughlin decision, from the New York State Court of Appeals, 1996,
>>> was
>>>> heard by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1997.
>>>>
>>>> In Griffin v. Coughlin, the prison inmate David Griffin complained
>>> that
>>>> state prison officials in 1991 told David Griffin, a self-described
>>> atheist
>>>> with a history of drug abuse, that in order to be eligible for
>>> expanded
>>>> family visitation privileges, including conjugal visits, he would have
>>> to
>>>> attend a prison rehabilitation program patterned after AA's 12-step
>>> model.2
>>>>
>>>> Griffin, then a prisoner at the Shawangunk Correctional Facility in
>>> Ulster
>>>> County, refused to attend the program, contending that the 12-step
>>> approach
>>>> requires participants to express a belief in a "power greater than
>>>> ourselves" and to "turn our will and our lives over to the care of God
>>> as we
>>>> understood him." These requirements, his lawsuit against the state
>>>> contended, violate the First Amendment's mandated separation of church
>>> and
>>>> state.
>>>>
>>>> Griffin lost in two lower courts, but won in New York State's highest
>>> court,
>>>> the New York Court of Appeals.
>>>>
>>>> In Griffin v. Coughlin, Judge Levine, writing for the court's
>>> majority,
>>>> concluded that the AA program is devoted to proselytizing for a
>>> religious
>>>> belief. The court's conclusion was based on its reading of several
>>> profiles
>>>> of early AA members as they are set forth in the AA Big Book and the
>>> AA
>>>> Twelve and Twelve.
>>>>
>>>> Judge Levine said "While it is of course true that the primary
>>> objective of
>>>> A.A. is to enable its adherents to achieve sobriety, its doctrine
>>>> unmistakably urges that the path to staying sober and to becoming
>>> happily
>>>> and usefully whole is by wholeheartedly embracing traditional theistic
>>>> beliefs."
>>>>
>>>> From its review of AA literature, the majority concluded that the AA
>>> Twelve
>>>> Steps amount to a worship service and that the AA fellowship is
>>> dedicated to
>>>> converting alcoholics to a belief in a traditional deity. Accordingly,
>>> the
>>>> court found that, "The foregoing demonstrates beyond peradventure that
>>>> doctrinally and as actually practiced in the 12-step methodology,
>>> adherence
>>>> to the A.A. fellowship entails engagement in religious activity and
>>>> religious proselytization. Followers are urged to accept the existence
>>> of
>>>> God as a Supreme Being, Creator, Father of Light and Spirit of the
>>>> Universe."
>>>>
>>>> When the U.S. Supreme Court heard the appeal, it sided with the
>>> atheist
>>>> convict who said the New York Department of Corrections' attempt to
>>> link
>>>> extra privileges for inmates with attendance at meetings modeled after
>>>> Alcoholics Anonymous violated the constitutionally mandated separation
>>> of
>>>> church and state.3
>>>>
>>>> On November 14, 1999 the U.S. Supreme Court refused to overturn, thus
>>>> allowed to stand, a ruling by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second
>>>> Circuit ordering that forced attendance at Narcotics Anonymous
>>> meetings end
>>>> immediately, because it was a violation of Freedom of Religion. The
>>> U.S.
>>>> Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit and the high courts of the
>>> states
>>>> of Tennessee and New York have also made the same ruling.
>>>>
>>>> -- quoted from http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-spirrel.html
>>>>
>>
>>
>>> you clearly have your opinions, as i have mine..........................
>>> with the help of AA and my HP i will celebrate 23yrs of sobriety in
>>> august.
>>> AA has helped me to have a whole new life.
>>
>> Sorry, I really botched the first line. What I meant to say was the
>> opinions of the courts are what matter, because they make the laws. Then
>> I quoted someone else's summary of many court decisions where AA was
>> ruled to be a religion. Note no court anywhere has ever ruled AA is not a
>> religion.
>>
>> I'm glad AA has helped you have a whole new life. The steps work well for
>> the lucky few for whom they work well. But what I care about is for every
>> one of you, there are 20 who aren't helped. That's the tragedy of AA's
>> religious program.
>>
>
>

A.A is based on attraction for those who want it. If you can find an easier
softer way feel free to explore your options.My decision to participate is
that I don't want to drink anymore not based on the findings of a judge.
There are may atheist's and agnostics who have found it helpful without
giving up their beleifs.


"wozza" <wozza96@_NO_SPAM_yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:42d10d11$0$20857$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...
> tell it to the judge...
>
> did you read what I posted? Could you really not understand it?. Here it
> is again in case you missed it:
> In the case of Grandberg v. Ashland County, a 1984 Federal 7th Circuit
> Court ruling concerning judicially-mandated A.A. attendance, the court
> said: "Alcoholics Anonymous materials and the testimony of the witness
> established beyond a doubt that religious activities, as defined in
> constitutional law, were a part of the treatment program. The distinction
> between religion and spirituality is meaningless, and serves merely to
> confuse the issue." -- Wisconsin's District Judge John Shabaz
>
> Which part of that do you not understand?
>
> What about your own definition? Did you not read it before you posted it?
> The second sense of spiritual actually does say, religious. All three
> senses of religion you quoted sum up AA pretty well. If really "there is a
> difference", you won't find it in AA.
>
> Came to believe in a power greater than ourselves?
> Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God?
> Admitted to God our wrongs?
> Humbly asked Him?
> Sought through prayer and medition to improve our conscious contact?
> Knowledge of his will? Power to carry that out?
> Having had a spiritual awakening?
>
> Much better to take this advice from the big book:
> "Upon therapy for the alcoholic himself, surely we have no monopoly"
> "Our book is meant to be suggestive only. We realise we know only a
> little"
>
>
> "Rob & Laura Frazier" <rflf@machlink.com> wrote in message
> news:11cuqcc8ok5g1f0@corp.supernews.com...
>> spiritual
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> spir·i·tu·al [ spírrichoo ?l ]
>>
>>
>> adjective
>>
>> 1. of soul: relating to the soul or spirit, usually in
>> contrast to material things
>>
>>
>> 2. of religion: relating to religious or sacred things
>> rather than worldly things
>>
>>
>> 3. temperamentally or intellectually akin: connected by
>> an
>> affinity of the mind, spirit, or temperament
>> spiritual mother of the young artist
>>
>>
>> 4. refined: showing great refinement and concern with
>> the
>> higher things in life
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> re·li·gion [ ri líjj?n ] (plural
>> re·li·gions)
>>
>>
>> noun
>>
>> 1. beliefs and worship: people's beliefs and
>> opinions concerning the existence, nature, and worship of a deity or
>> deities, and divine involvement in the universe and human life
>>
>>
>> 2. system: an institutionalized or personal
>> system of beliefs and practices relating to the divine
>>
>>
>> 3. personal beliefs or values: a set of
>> strongly-held beliefs, values, and attitudes that somebody lives by
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> There is a difference
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Encarta® World English Dictionary [North American Edition] © &
>> (P)2005
>> Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Developed for Microsoft by
>> Bloomsbury Publishing Plc.
>>
>> More Links from Our Advertisers
>> SAT Prep
>> Distance Learning
>> Education Online
>> Tutoring
>> Online MBA
>> Textbook
>>
>> >>Back to more links from Our Advertisers
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "wozza" <wozza96@_NO_SPAM_yahoo.com>
>> Newsgroups: alt.recovery.addiction.alcoholism
>> Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2005 4:56 AM
>> Subject: Re: Jews and the 12-step program
>>
>>
>>>> "wozza" <wozza96@_NO_SPAM_yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:42b68d46$0$13943$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...
>>>>> "rosie read n' post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:iuite.16267$lI2.7345@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>>>>> > RELIGION is for those who are afraid of hell..................
>>>>> > SPIRITUALITY is for those who have been there!
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > imo, AA is not a religion.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Unfortunately, your opinion counts for zilch, but the opinions of are
>>>> worth
>>>>> taking notice.
>>>>>
>>>>> A.A. claims that it is a "spiritual" organization, and not
>>>> "religious", and
>>>>> not a religion, but there is no great difference between the words
>>>>> "religious" and "spiritual." The distinction is artificial -- just
>>>> another
>>>>> deceptive word game.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the case of Grandberg v. Ashland County, a 1984 Federal 7th Circuit
>>>> Court
>>>>> ruling concerning judicially-mandated A.A. attendance, the court said:
>>>>>
>>>>> Alcoholics Anonymous materials and the testimony of the witness
>>>> established
>>>>> beyond a doubt that religious activities, as defined in constitutional
>>>> law,
>>>>> were a part of the treatment program. The distinction between religion
>>>> and
>>>>> spirituality is meaningless, and serves merely to confuse the issue.
>>>>> -- Wisconsin's District Judge John Shabaz
>>>>>
>>>>> All of these courts have ruled that Alcoholics Anonymous is a religion
>>>> or
>>>>> engages in religious activities:
>>>>>
>>>>> the Federal 7th Circuit Court in Wisconsin, 1984.
>>>>> the Federal District Court for Southern New York, 1994.
>>>>> the New York Court of Appeals, 1996.
>>>>> the New York State Supreme Court, 1996.
>>>>> the U.S. Supreme Court, 1997.
>>>>> the Tennessee State Supreme Court.
>>>>> the Federal 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals in New York, 1996.
>>>>> the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit.
>>>>> the U.S. Court of Appeals, Seventh District, 1996.
>>>>> the Federal Appeals Court in Chicago, 1996.
>>>>>
>>>>> The United States Supreme Court has refused to hear challenges to
>>>> those
>>>>> rulings, or to change or over-turn those lower court decisions. By
>>>> letting
>>>>> them stand, the Supreme Court has made them the law of the land.
>>>>>
>>>>> But there is one very important exception to that statement -- the
>>>> Griffin
>>>>> v. Coughlin decision, from the New York State Court of Appeals, 1996,
>>>> was
>>>>> heard by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1997.
>>>>>
>>>>> In Griffin v. Coughlin, the prison inmate David Griffin complained
>>>> that
>>>>> state prison officials in 1991 told David Griffin, a self-described
>>>> atheist
>>>>> with a history of drug abuse, that in order to be eligible for
>>>> expanded
>>>>> family visitation privileges, including conjugal visits, he would have
>>>> to
>>>>> attend a prison rehabilitation program patterned after AA's 12-step
>>>> model.2
>>>>>
>>>>> Griffin, then a prisoner at the Shawangunk Correctional Facility in
>>>> Ulster
>>>>> County, refused to attend the program, contending that the 12-step
>>>> approach
>>>>> requires participants to express a belief in a "power greater than
>>>>> ourselves" and to "turn our will and our lives over to the care of God
>>>> as we
>>>>> understood him." These requirements, his lawsuit against the state
>>>>> contended, violate the First Amendment's mandated separation of church
>>>> and
>>>>> state.
>>>>>
>>>>> Griffin lost in two lower courts, but won in New York State's highest
>>>> court,
>>>>> the New York Court of Appeals.
>>>>>
>>>>> In Griffin v. Coughlin, Judge Levine, writing for the court's
>>>> majority,
>>>>> concluded that the AA program is devoted to proselytizing for a
>>>> religious
>>>>> belief. The court's conclusion was based on its reading of several
>>>> profiles
>>>>> of early AA members as they are set forth in the AA Big Book and the
>>>> AA
>>>>> Twelve and Twelve.
>>>>>
>>>>> Judge Levine said "While it is of course true that the primary
>>>> objective of
>>>>> A.A. is to enable its adherents to achieve sobriety, its doctrine
>>>>> unmistakably urges that the path to staying sober and to becoming
>>>> happily
>>>>> and usefully whole is by wholeheartedly embracing traditional theistic
>>>>> beliefs."
>>>>>
>>>>> From its review of AA literature, the majority concluded that the AA
>>>> Twelve
>>>>> Steps amount to a worship service and that the AA fellowship is
>>>> dedicated to
>>>>> converting alcoholics to a belief in a traditional deity. Accordingly,
>>>> the
>>>>> court found that, "The foregoing demonstrates beyond peradventure that
>>>>> doctrinally and as actually practiced in the 12-step methodology,
>>>> adherence
>>>>> to the A.A. fellowship entails engagement in religious activity and
>>>>> religious proselytization. Followers are urged to accept the existence
>>>> of
>>>>> God as a Supreme Being, Creator, Father of Light and Spirit of the
>>>>> Universe."
>>>>>
>>>>> When the U.S. Supreme Court heard the appeal, it sided with the
>>>> atheist
>>>>> convict who said the New York Department of Corrections' attempt to
>>>> link
>>>>> extra privileges for inmates with attendance at meetings modeled after
>>>>> Alcoholics Anonymous violated the constitutionally mandated separation
>>>> of
>>>>> church and state.3
>>>>>
>>>>> On November 14, 1999 the U.S. Supreme Court refused to overturn, thus
>>>>> allowed to stand, a ruling by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second
>>>>> Circuit ordering that forced attendance at Narcotics Anonymous
>>>> meetings end
>>>>> immediately, because it was a violation of Freedom of Religion. The
>>>> U.S.
>>>>> Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit and the high courts of the
>>>> states
>>>>> of Tennessee and New York have also made the same ruling.
>>>>>
>>>>> -- quoted from http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-spirrel.html
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> you clearly have your opinions, as i have
>>>> mine..........................
>>>> with the help of AA and my HP i will celebrate 23yrs of sobriety in
>>>> august.
>>>> AA has helped me to have a whole new life.
>>>
>>> Sorry, I really botched the first line. What I meant to say was the
>>> opinions of the courts are what matter, because they make the laws. Then
>>> I
>>> quoted someone else's summary of many court decisions where AA was ruled
>>> to be a religion. Note no court anywhere has ever ruled AA is not a
>>> religion.
>>>
>>> I'm glad AA has helped you have a whole new life. The steps work well
>>> for
>>> the lucky few for whom they work well. But what I care about is for
>>> every
>>> one of you, there are 20 who aren't helped. That's the tragedy of AA's
>>> religious program.
>>>
>>
>> "wozza" <wozza96@_NO_SPAM_yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:42ba8916$0$24005$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...
>>>> "wozza" <wozza96@_NO_SPAM_yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:42b68d46$0$13943$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...
>>>>> "rosie read n' post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:iuite.16267$lI2.7345@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>>>>> > RELIGION is for those who are afraid of hell..................
>>>>> > SPIRITUALITY is for those who have been there!
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > imo, AA is not a religion.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Unfortunately, your opinion counts for zilch, but the opinions of are
>>>> worth
>>>>> taking notice.
>>>>>
>>>>> A.A. claims that it is a "spiritual" organization, and not
>>>> "religious", and
>>>>> not a religion, but there is no great difference between the words
>>>>> "religious" and "spiritual." The distinction is artificial -- just
>>>> another
>>>>> deceptive word game.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the case of Grandberg v. Ashland County, a 1984 Federal 7th Circuit
>>>> Court
>>>>> ruling concerning judicially-mandated A.A. attendance, the court said:
>>>>>
>>>>> Alcoholics Anonymous materials and the testimony of the witness
>>>> established
>>>>> beyond a doubt that religious activities, as defined in constitutional
>>>> law,
>>>>> were a part of the treatment program. The distinction between religion
>>>> and
>>>>> spirituality is meaningless, and serves merely to confuse the issue.
>>>>> -- Wisconsin's District Judge John Shabaz
>>>>>
>>>>> All of these courts have ruled that Alcoholics Anonymous is a religion
>>>> or
>>>>> engages in religious activities:
>>>>>
>>>>> the Federal 7th Circuit Court in Wisconsin, 1984.
>>>>> the Federal District Court for Southern New York, 1994.
>>>>> the New York Court of Appeals, 1996.
>>>>> the New York State Supreme Court, 1996.
>>>>> the U.S. Supreme Court, 1997.
>>>>> the Tennessee State Supreme Court.
>>>>> the Federal 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals in New York, 1996.
>>>>> the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit.
>>>>> the U.S. Court of Appeals, Seventh District, 1996.
>>>>> the Federal Appeals Court in Chicago, 1996.
>>>>>
>>>>> The United States Supreme Court has refused to hear challenges to
>>>> those
>>>>> rulings, or to change or over-turn those lower court decisions. By
>>>> letting
>>>>> them stand, the Supreme Court has made them the law of the land.
>>>>>
>>>>> But there is one very important exception to that statement -- the
>>>> Griffin
>>>>> v. Coughlin decision, from the New York State Court of Appeals, 1996,
>>>> was
>>>>> heard by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1997.
>>>>>
>>>>> In Griffin v. Coughlin, the prison inmate David Griffin complained
>>>> that
>>>>> state prison officials in 1991 told David Griffin, a self-described
>>>> atheist
>>>>> with a history of drug abuse, that in order to be eligible for
>>>> expanded
>>>>> family visitation privileges, including conjugal visits, he would have
>>>> to
>>>>> attend a prison rehabilitation program patterned after AA's 12-step
>>>> model.2
>>>>>
>>>>> Griffin, then a prisoner at the Shawangunk Correctional Facility in
>>>> Ulster
>>>>> County, refused to attend the program, contending that the 12-step
>>>> approach
>>>>> requires participants to express a belief in a "power greater than
>>>>> ourselves" and to "turn our will and our lives over to the care of God
>>>> as we
>>>>> understood him." These requirements, his lawsuit against the state
>>>>> contended, violate the First Amendment's mandated separation of church
>>>> and
>>>>> state.
>>>>>
>>>>> Griffin lost in two lower courts, but won in New York State's highest
>>>> court,
>>>>> the New York Court of Appeals.
>>>>>
>>>>> In Griffin v. Coughlin, Judge Levine, writing for the court's
>>>> majority,
>>>>> concluded that the AA program is devoted to proselytizing for a
>>>> religious
>>>>> belief. The court's conclusion was based on its reading of several
>>>> profiles
>>>>> of early AA members as they are set forth in the AA Big Book and the
>>>> AA
>>>>> Twelve and Twelve.
>>>>>
>>>>> Judge Levine said "While it is of course true that the primary
>>>> objective of
>>>>> A.A. is to enable its adherents to achieve sobriety, its doctrine
>>>>> unmistakably urges that the path to staying sober and to becoming
>>>> happily
>>>>> and usefully whole is by wholeheartedly embracing traditional theistic
>>>>> beliefs."
>>>>>
>>>>> From its review of AA literature, the majority concluded that the AA
>>>> Twelve
>>>>> Steps amount to a worship service and that the AA fellowship is
>>>> dedicated to
>>>>> converting alcoholics to a belief in a traditional deity. Accordingly,
>>>> the
>>>>> court found that, "The foregoing demonstrates beyond peradventure that
>>>>> doctrinally and as actually practiced in the 12-step methodology,
>>>> adherence
>>>>> to the A.A. fellowship entails engagement in religious activity and
>>>>> religious proselytization. Followers are urged to accept the existence
>>>> of
>>>>> God as a Supreme Being, Creator, Father of Light and Spirit of the
>>>>> Universe."
>>>>>
>>>>> When the U.S. Supreme Court heard the appeal, it sided with the
>>>> atheist
>>>>> convict who said the New York Department of Corrections' attempt to
>>>> link
>>>>> extra privileges for inmates with attendance at meetings modeled after
>>>>> Alcoholics Anonymous violated the constitutionally mandated separation
>>>> of
>>>>> church and state.3
>>>>>
>>>>> On November 14, 1999 the U.S. Supreme Court refused to overturn, thus
>>>>> allowed to stand, a ruling by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second
>>>>> Circuit ordering that forced attendance at Narcotics Anonymous
>>>> meetings end
>>>>> immediately, because it was a violation of Freedom of Religion. The
>>>> U.S.
>>>>> Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit and the high courts of the
>>>> states
>>>>> of Tennessee and New York have also made the same ruling.
>>>>>
>>>>> -- quoted from http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-spirrel.html
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> you clearly have your opinions, as i have
>>>> mine..........................
>>>> with the help of AA and my HP i will celebrate 23yrs of sobriety in
>>>> august.
>>>> AA has helped me to have a whole new life.
>>>
>>> Sorry, I really botched the first line. What I meant to say was the
>>> opinions of the courts are what matter, because they make the laws. Then
>>> I quoted someone else's summary of many court decisions where AA was
>>> ruled to be a religion. Note no court anywhere has ever ruled AA is not
>>> a religion.
>>>
>>> I'm glad AA has helped you have a whole new life. The steps work well
>>> for the lucky few for whom they work well. But what I care about is for
>>> every one of you, there are 20 who aren't helped. That's the tragedy of
>>> AA's religious program.
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

"wozza" <wozza96@_NO_SPAM_yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:42d10d11$0$20857$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...
> tell it to the judge...
>
> did you read what I posted? Could you really not understand it?. Here it
is
> again in case you missed it:
> In the case of Grandberg v. Ashland County, a 1984 Federal 7th Circuit
Court
> ruling concerning judicially-mandated A.A. attendance, the court said:
> "Alcoholics Anonymous materials and the testimony of the witness
established
> beyond a doubt that religious activities, as defined in constitutional
law,
> were a part of the treatment program. The distinction between religion and
> spirituality is meaningless, and serves merely to confuse the issue." --
> Wisconsin's District Judge John Shabaz
>
> Which part of that do you not understand?
>
> What about your own definition? Did you not read it before you posted it?
> The second sense of spiritual actually does say, religious. All three
senses
> of religion you quoted sum up AA pretty well. If really "there is a
> difference", you won't find it in AA.
>
> Came to believe in a power greater than ourselves?
> Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God?
> Admitted to God our wrongs?
> Humbly asked Him?
> Sought through prayer and medition to improve our conscious contact?
> Knowledge of his will? Power to carry that out?
> Having had a spiritual awakening?
>
> Much better to take this advice from the big book:
> "Upon therapy for the alcoholic himself, surely we have no monopoly"
> "Our book is meant to be suggestive only. We realise we know only a
little"
>
>
> "Rob & Laura Frazier" <rflf@machlink.com> wrote in message
> news:11cuqcc8ok5g1f0@corp.supernews.com...
> > spiritual
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > spir·i·tu·al [ spírrichoo ?l ]
> >
> >
> > adjective
> >
> > 1. of soul: relating to the soul or spirit, usually in
> > contrast to material things
> >
> >
> > 2. of religion: relating to religious or sacred things
> > rather than worldly things
> >
> >
> > 3. temperamentally or intellectually akin: connected by
> > an
> > affinity of the mind, spirit, or temperament
> > spiritual mother of the young artist
> >
> >
> > 4. refined: showing great refinement and concern with
the
> > higher things in life
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > re·li·gion [ ri líjj?n ] (plural
re·li·gions)
> >
> >
> > noun
> >
> > 1. beliefs and worship: people's beliefs
and
> > opinions concerning the existence, nature, and worship of a deity or
> > deities, and divine involvement in the universe and human life
> >
> >
> > 2. system: an institutionalized or personal
> > system of beliefs and practices relating to the divine
> >
> >
> > 3. personal beliefs or values: a set of
> > strongly-held beliefs, values, and attitudes that somebody lives by
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > There is a difference
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Encarta® World English Dictionary [North American Edition] © &
> > (P)2005
> > Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Developed for Microsoft by
> > Bloomsbury Publishing Plc.
> >
> > More Links from Our Advertisers
> > SAT Prep
> > Distance Learning
> > Education Online
> > Tutoring
> > Online MBA
> > Textbook
> >
> > >>Back to more links from Our Advertisers
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "wozza" <wozza96@_NO_SPAM_yahoo.com>
> > Newsgroups: alt.recovery.addiction.alcoholism
> > Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2005 4:56 AM
> > Subject: Re: Jews and the 12-step program
> >
> >
> >>> "wozza" <wozza96@_NO_SPAM_yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >>> news:42b68d46$0$13943$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...
> >>>> "rosie read n' post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >>>> news:iuite.16267$lI2.7345@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> >>>> > RELIGION is for those who are afraid of hell..................
> >>>> > SPIRITUALITY is for those who have been there!
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > imo, AA is not a religion.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Unfortunately, your opinion counts for zilch, but the opinions of are
> >>> worth
> >>>> taking notice.
> >>>>
> >>>> A.A. claims that it is a "spiritual" organization, and not
> >>> "religious", and
> >>>> not a religion, but there is no great difference between the words
> >>>> "religious" and "spiritual." The distinction is artificial -- just
> >>> another
> >>>> deceptive word game.
> >>>>
> >>>> In the case of Grandberg v. Ashland County, a 1984 Federal 7th
Circuit
> >>> Court
> >>>> ruling concerning judicially-mandated A.A. attendance, the court
said:
> >>>>
> >>>> Alcoholics Anonymous materials and the testimony of the witness
> >>> established
> >>>> beyond a doubt that religious activities, as defined in
constitutional
> >>> law,
> >>>> were a part of the treatment program. The distinction between
religion
> >>> and
> >>>> spirituality is meaningless, and serves merely to confuse the issue.
> >>>> -- Wisconsin's District Judge John Shabaz
> >>>>
> >>>> All of these courts have ruled that Alcoholics Anonymous is a
religion
> >>> or
> >>>> engages in religious activities:
> >>>>
> >>>> the Federal 7th Circuit Court in Wisconsin, 1984.
> >>>> the Federal District Court for Southern New York, 1994.
> >>>> the New York Court of Appeals, 1996.
> >>>> the New York State Supreme Court, 1996.
> >>>> the U.S. Supreme Court, 1997.
> >>>> the Tennessee State Supreme Court.
> >>>> the Federal 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals in New York, 1996.
> >>>> the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit.
> >>>> the U.S. Court of Appeals, Seventh District, 1996.
> >>>> the Federal Appeals Court in Chicago, 1996.
> >>>>
> >>>> The United States Supreme Court has refused to hear challenges to
> >>> those
> >>>> rulings, or to change or over-turn those lower court decisions. By
> >>> letting
> >>>> them stand, the Supreme Court has made them the law of the land.
> >>>>
> >>>> But there is one very important exception to that statement -- the
> >>> Griffin
> >>>> v. Coughlin decision, from the New York State Court of Appeals, 1996,
> >>> was
> >>>> heard by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1997.
> >>>>
> >>>> In Griffin v. Coughlin, the prison inmate David Griffin complained
> >>> that
> >>>> state prison officials in 1991 told David Griffin, a self-described
> >>> atheist
> >>>> with a history of drug abuse, that in order to be eligible for
> >>> expanded
> >>>> family visitation privileges, including conjugal visits, he would
have
> >>> to
> >>>> attend a prison rehabilitation program patterned after AA's 12-step
> >>> model.2
> >>>>
> >>>> Griffin, then a prisoner at the Shawangunk Correctional Facility in
> >>> Ulster
> >>>> County, refused to attend the program, contending that the 12-step
> >>> approach
> >>>> requires participants to express a belief in a "power greater than
> >>>> ourselves" and to "turn our will and our lives over to the care of
God
> >>> as we
> >>>> understood him." These requirements, his lawsuit against the state
> >>>> contended, violate the First Amendment's mandated separation of
church
> >>> and
> >>>> state.
> >>>>
> >>>> Griffin lost in two lower courts, but won in New York State's highest
> >>> court,
> >>>> the New York Court of Appeals.
> >>>>
> >>>> In Griffin v. Coughlin, Judge Levine, writing for the court's
> >>> majority,
> >>>> concluded that the AA program is devoted to proselytizing for a
> >>> religious
> >>>> belief. The court's conclusion was based on its reading of several
> >>> profiles
> >>>> of early AA members as they are set forth in the AA Big Book and the
> >>> AA
> >>>> Twelve and Twelve.
> >>>>
> >>>> Judge Levine said "While it is of course true that the primary
> >>> objective of
> >>>> A.A. is to enable its adherents to achieve sobriety, its doctrine
> >>>> unmistakably urges that the path to staying sober and to becoming
> >>> happily
> >>>> and usefully whole is by wholeheartedly embracing traditional
theistic
> >>>> beliefs."
> >>>>
> >>>> From its review of AA literature, the majority concluded that the AA
> >>> Twelve
> >>>> Steps amount to a worship service and that the AA fellowship is
> >>> dedicated to
> >>>> converting alcoholics to a belief in a traditional deity.
Accordingly,
> >>> the
> >>>> court found that, "The foregoing demonstrates beyond peradventure
that
> >>>> doctrinally and as actually practiced in the 12-step methodology,
> >>> adherence
> >>>> to the A.A. fellowship entails engagement in religious activity and
> >>>> religious proselytization. Followers are urged to accept the
existence
> >>> of
> >>>> God as a Supreme Being, Creator, Father of Light and Spirit of the
> >>>> Universe."
> >>>>
> >>>> When the U.S. Supreme Court heard the appeal, it sided with the
> >>> atheist
> >>>> convict who said the New York Department of Corrections' attempt to
> >>> link
> >>>> extra privileges for inmates with attendance at meetings modeled
after
> >>>> Alcoholics Anonymous violated the constitutionally mandated
separation
> >>> of
> >>>> church and state.3
> >>>>
> >>>> On November 14, 1999 the U.S. Supreme Court refused to overturn, thus
> >>>> allowed to stand, a ruling by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the
Second
> >>>> Circuit ordering that forced attendance at Narcotics Anonymous
> >>> meetings end
> >>>> immediately, because it was a violation of Freedom of Religion. The
> >>> U.S.
> >>>> Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit and the high courts of the
> >>> states
> >>>> of Tennessee and New York have also made the same ruling.
> >>>>
> >>>> -- quoted from http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-spirrel.html
> >>>>
> >>
> >>
> >>> you clearly have your opinions, as i have
mine..........................
> >>> with the help of AA and my HP i will celebrate 23yrs of sobriety in
> >>> august.
> >>> AA has helped me to have a whole new life.
> >>
> >> Sorry, I really botched the first line. What I meant to say was the
> >> opinions of the courts are what matter, because they make the laws.
Then
> >> I
> >> quoted someone else's summary of many court decisions where AA was
ruled
> >> to be a religion. Note no court anywhere has ever ruled AA is not a
> >> religion.
> >>
> >> I'm glad AA has helped you have a whole new life. The steps work well
for
> >> the lucky few for whom they work well. But what I care about is for
every
> >> one of you, there are 20 who aren't helped. That's the tragedy of AA's
> >> religious program.
> >>
> >
> > "wozza" <wozza96@_NO_SPAM_yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:42ba8916$0$24005$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...
> >>> "wozza" <wozza96@_NO_SPAM_yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >>> news:42b68d46$0$13943$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...
> >>>> "rosie read n' post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >>>> news:iuite.16267$lI2.7345@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> >>>> > RELIGION is for those who are afraid of hell..................
> >>>> > SPIRITUALITY is for those who have been there!
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > imo, AA is not a religion.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Unfortunately, your opinion counts for zilch, but the opinions of are
> >>> worth
> >>>> taking notice.
> >>>>
> >>>> A.A. claims that it is a "spiritual" organization, and not
> >>> "religious", and
> >>>> not a religion, but there is no great difference between the words
> >>>> "religious" and "spiritual." The distinction is artificial -- just
> >>> another
> >>>> deceptive word game.
> >>>>
> >>>> In the case of Grandberg v. Ashland County, a 1984 Federal 7th
Circuit
> >>> Court
> >>>> ruling concerning judicially-mandated A.A. attendance, the court
said:
> >>>>
> >>>> Alcoholics Anonymous materials and the testimony of the witness
> >>> established
> >>>> beyond a doubt that religious activities, as defined in
constitutional
> >>> law,
> >>>> were a part of the treatment program. The distinction between
religion
> >>> and
> >>>> spirituality is meaningless, and serves merely to confuse the issue.
> >>>> -- Wisconsin's District Judge John Shabaz
> >>>>
> >>>> All of these courts have ruled that Alcoholics Anonymous is a
religion
> >>> or
> >>>> engages in religious activities:
> >>>>
> >>>> the Federal 7th Circuit Court in Wisconsin, 1984.
> >>>> the Federal District Court for Southern New York, 1994.
> >>>> the New York Court of Appeals, 1996.
> >>>> the New York State Supreme Court, 1996.
> >>>> the U.S. Supreme Court, 1997.
> >>>> the Tennessee State Supreme Court.
> >>>> the Federal 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals in New York, 1996.
> >>>> the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit.
> >>>> the U.S. Court of Appeals, Seventh District, 1996.
> >>>> the Federal Appeals Court in Chicago, 1996.
> >>>>
> >>>> The United States Supreme Court has refused to hear challenges to
> >>> those
> >>>> rulings, or to change or over-turn those lower court decisions. By
> >>> letting
> >>>> them stand, the Supreme Court has made them the law of the land.
> >>>>
> >>>> But there is one very important exception to that statement -- the
> >>> Griffin
> >>>> v. Coughlin decision, from the New York State Court of Appeals, 1996,
> >>> was
> >>>> heard by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1997.
> >>>>
> >>>> In Griffin v. Coughlin, the prison inmate David Griffin complained
> >>> that
> >>>> state prison officials in 1991 told David Griffin, a self-described
> >>> atheist
> >>>> with a history of drug abuse, that in order to be eligible for
> >>> expanded
> >>>> family visitation privileges, including conjugal visits, he would
have
> >>> to
> >>>> attend a prison rehabilitation program patterned after AA's 12-step
> >>> model.2
> >>>>
> >>>> Griffin, then a prisoner at the Shawangunk Correctional Facility in
> >>> Ulster
> >>>> County, refused to attend the program, contending that the 12-step
> >>> approach
> >>>> requires participants to express a belief in a "power greater than
> >>>> ourselves" and to "turn our will and our lives over to the care of
God
> >>> as we
> >>>> understood him." These requirements, his lawsuit against the state
> >>>> contended, violate the First Amendment's mandated separation of
church
> >>> and
> >>>> state.
> >>>>
> >>>> Griffin lost in two lower courts, but won in New York State's highest
> >>> court,
> >>>> the New York Court of Appeals.
> >>>>
> >>>> In Griffin v. Coughlin, Judge Levine, writing for the court's
> >>> majority,
> >>>> concluded that the AA program is devoted to proselytizing for a
> >>> religious
> >>>> belief. The court's conclusion was based on its reading of several
> >>> profiles
> >>>> of early AA members as they are set forth in the AA Big Book and the
> >>> AA
> >>>> Twelve and Twelve.
> >>>>
> >>>> Judge Levine said "While it is of course true that the primary
> >>> objective of
> >>>> A.A. is to enable its adherents to achieve sobriety, its doctrine
> >>>> unmistakably urges that the path to staying sober and to becoming
> >>> happily
> >>>> and usefully whole is by wholeheartedly embracing traditional
theistic
> >>>> beliefs."
> >>>>
> >>>> From its review of AA literature, the majority concluded that the AA
> >>> Twelve
> >>>> Steps amount to a worship service and that the AA fellowship is
> >>> dedicated to
> >>>> converting alcoholics to a belief in a traditional deity.
Accordingly,
> >>> the
> >>>> court found that, "The foregoing demonstrates beyond peradventure
that
> >>>> doctrinally and as actually practiced in the 12-step methodology,
> >>> adherence
> >>>> to the A.A. fellowship entails engagement in religious activity and
> >>>> religious proselytization. Followers are urged to accept the
existence
> >>> of
> >>>> God as a Supreme Being, Creator, Father of Light and Spirit of the
> >>>> Universe."
> >>>>
> >>>> When the U.S. Supreme Court heard the appeal, it sided with the
> >>> atheist
> >>>> convict who said the New York Department of Corrections' attempt to
> >>> link
> >>>> extra privileges for inmates with attendance at meetings modeled
after
> >>>> Alcoholics Anonymous violated the constitutionally mandated
separation
> >>> of
> >>>> church and state.3
> >>>>
> >>>> On November 14, 1999 the U.S. Supreme Court refused to overturn, thus
> >>>> allowed to stand, a ruling by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the
Second
> >>>> Circuit ordering that forced attendance at Narcotics Anonymous
> >>> meetings end
> >>>> immediately, because it was a violation of Freedom of Religion. The
> >>> U.S.
> >>>> Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit and the high courts of the
> >>> states
> >>>> of Tennessee and New York have also made the same ruling.
> >>>>
> >>>> -- quoted from http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-spirrel.html
> >>>>
> >>
> >>
> >>> you clearly have your opinions, as i have
mine..........................
> >>> with the help of AA and my HP i will celebrate 23yrs of sobriety in
> >>> august.
> >>> AA has helped me to have a whole new life.
> >>
> >> Sorry, I really botched the first line. What I meant to say was the
> >> opinions of the courts are what matter, because they make the laws.
Then
> >> I quoted someone else's summary of many court decisions where AA was
> >> ruled to be a religion. Note no court anywhere has ever ruled AA is not
a
> >> religion.
> >>
> >> I'm glad AA has helped you have a whole new life. The steps work well
for
> >> the lucky few for whom they work well. But what I care about is for
every
> >> one of you, there are 20 who aren't helped. That's the tragedy of AA's
> >> religious program.
> >>
> >
> >

Yep,

It's a God thing -- not really Jewish or Christian or Hindu or Buddhist or
Wiccan or Native American or a host of other "religions" -- but it is
indeedy a God thing.

AA is not for everyone - It is not the only way one might get sober - AA as
an organization says that AA does not have the "corner" on sobriety. There
are and will always be those within AA and those not affiliated who might
tell you otherwise - that is less AA and more human nature. History and
Science has not finitely defined the answer to the question of Disease or
Conditioned Behavior, but there are those who will argue otherwise until
"hell freezes over." As a group, we have found the answer to that question
is less meaningful as the action required to overcome the problem.

As the loosely designed organization that we are, we are still little more
than thousands of groups of nameless alcoholics who have found a way to keep
each other sober. We truly have little more to offer than this program of
12 steps and our own experience, strength and hope. As alcoholics, many of
have been where others are and found a way out. We have found among
ourselves we basically selfish, self-centered lot and, that ultimately, this
selfish and self-centered thought and behavior was and is the cause of most,
if not all, of our problems in dealing with the people around us.

We have found in our belief that there is a power greater than ourselves
that we could be restored to sanity. As individuals and as a group, we are
unwilling to turn to another human being as this higher power, so yes, we
turn to God - a God of our individual understanding. For me the belief is
more about acceptance and less about reliance; although, there are many who
argue otherwise.

As vehemently as Ken Ragge, the alocure publishers and wozza will argue that
AA will not help you get sober - there are others who will argue that AA is
the only way to get sober. I have these folks to simply be two faces of the
same coin. For these folks everything must either be A or B, with nothing
in between.
Oh, were life so simple.... I have learned in my AA experience that
nothing in life is so well defined as "Black or White" -- we exist within
the thousands of Greys that lie between the radicals and the
reactionaries -- both of whom I personally have little use for.

Ultimately, I think it matters little what some judge somewhere said -- it
will not increase or decrease the number of alcoholics nor the number of
people in AA or any other program of recovery. However, it is a wonderful
topic for a bunch of selfish, self-centered megalomaniacs to waste time
discussing. It is so much more interesting than getting about the business
of getting sober.

There are many kinds of sobriety out there.... I suggest you had better pick
on you like. And if AAs odds are 1 in 20 -- it's gotta be the best game in
town.

Bobby L

It's a religion. AA exists to bring people into Frank Buchman's sytem of
belief and practice.

It does matter what some judge said, becuase that becomes the law of the
land. Very few people coming into AA will be told that "the distinction
between religion and spirituality is meaningless, and serves merely to
confuse the issue." I just want more "rigourous honesty" and less denial.

AA ignores the question of Disease vs Conditioned behaviour (if indeed that
is the right question to be asking), because AA's answer can't stand up to
any kind of rational analysis. The insistence on the primacy of practice as
against rational thought is the hallmark of cults everywhere.

All the big book and steps have to offer is magic and superstition ("that is
the miracle of it... so long as we keep in fit spiritual condition"). As I
always say, it works well for the lucky few for whom it works well. But the
majority of people find it no help at all, and they deserve better.

I go to AA meetings. Meeting with other alcoholics helps me somewhat. Other
things help me also. My hope is that AA can outgrow its religious
background, and truly offer something for everyone who seeks. That means
giving up this insistence on religious faith as the only answer. The group I
go to has done that. Perhaps yours has too.

> Yep,
>
> It's a God thing -- not really Jewish or Christian or Hindu or Buddhist or
> Wiccan or Native American or a host of other "religions" -- but it is
> indeedy a God thing.
>
> AA is not for everyone - It is not the only way one might get sober - AA
> as
> an organization says that AA does not have the "corner" on sobriety.
> There
> are and will always be those within AA and those not affiliated who might
> tell you otherwise - that is less AA and more human nature. History and
> Science has not finitely defined the answer to the question of Disease or
> Conditioned Behavior, but there are those who will argue otherwise until
> "hell freezes over." As a group, we have found the answer to that
> question
> is less meaningful as the action required to overcome the problem.
>
> As the loosely designed organization that we are, we are still little more
> than thousands of groups of nameless alcoholics who have found a way to
> keep
> each other sober. We truly have little more to offer than this program of
> 12 steps and our own experience, strength and hope. As alcoholics, many
> of
> have been where others are and found a way out. We have found among
> ourselves we basically selfish, self-centered lot and, that ultimately,
> this
> selfish and self-centered thought and behavior was and is the cause of
> most,
> if not all, of our problems in dealing with the people around us.
>
> We have found in our belief that there is a power greater than ourselves
> that we could be restored to sanity. As individuals and as a group, we
> are
> unwilling to turn to another human being as this higher power, so yes, we
> turn to God - a God of our individual understanding. For me the belief is
> more about acceptance and less about reliance; although, there are many
> who
> argue otherwise.
>
> As vehemently as Ken Ragge, the alocure publishers and wozza will argue
> that
> AA will not help you get sober - there are others who will argue that AA
> is
> the only way to get sober. I have these folks to simply be two faces of
> the
> same coin. For these folks everything must either be A or B, with nothing
> in between.
> Oh, were life so simple.... I have learned in my AA experience that
> nothing in life is so well defined as "Black or White" -- we exist within
> the thousands of Greys that lie between the radicals and the
> reactionaries -- both of whom I personally have little use for.
>
> Ultimately, I think it matters little what some judge somewhere said -- it
> will not increase or decrease the number of alcoholics nor the number of
> people in AA or any other program of recovery. However, it is a wonderful
> topic for a bunch of selfish, self-centered megalomaniacs to waste time
> discussing. It is so much more interesting than getting about the
> business
> of getting sober.
>
> There are many kinds of sobriety out there.... I suggest you had better
> pick
> on you like. And if AAs odds are 1 in 20 -- it's gotta be the best game
> in
> town.
>
> Bobby L
>
>
>
>

"Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:zGlAe.58856$Tt.50521@bignews3.bellsouth.net.. .
>
> "wozza" <wozza96@_NO_SPAM_yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:42d10d11$0$20857$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...
>> tell it to the judge...
>>
>> did you read what I posted? Could you really not understand it?. Here it
> is
>> again in case you missed it:
>> In the case of Grandberg v. Ashland County, a 1984 Federal 7th Circuit
> Court
>> ruling concerning judicially-mandated A.A. attendance, the court said:
>> "Alcoholics Anonymous materials and the testimony of the witness
> established
>> beyond a doubt that religious activities, as defined in constitutional
> law,
>> were a part of the treatment program. The distinction between religion
>> and
>> spirituality is meaningless, and serves merely to confuse the issue." --
>> Wisconsin's District Judge John Shabaz
>>
>> Which part of that do you not understand?
>>
>> What about your own definition? Did you not read it before you posted it?
>> The second sense of spiritual actually does say, religious. All three
> senses
>> of religion you quoted sum up AA pretty well. If really "there is a
>> difference", you won't find it in AA.
>>
>> Came to believe in a power greater than ourselves?
>> Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God?
>> Admitted to God our wrongs?
>> Humbly asked Him?
>> Sought through prayer and medition to improve our conscious contact?
>> Knowledge of his will? Power to carry that out?
>> Having had a spiritual awakening?
>>
>> Much better to take this advice from the big book:
>> "Upon therapy for the alcoholic himself, surely we have no monopoly"
>> "Our book is meant to be suggestive only. We realise we know only a
> little"
>>
>>
>> "Rob & Laura Frazier" <rflf@machlink.com> wrote in message
>> news:11cuqcc8ok5g1f0@corp.supernews.com...
>> > spiritual
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > spir·i·tu·al [ spírrichoo ?l ]
>> >
>> >
>> > adjective
>> >
>> > 1. of soul: relating to the soul or spirit, usually in
>> > contrast to material things
>> >
>> >
>> > 2. of religion: relating to religious or sacred things
>> > rather than worldly things
>> >
>> >
>> > 3. temperamentally or intellectually akin: connected
>> > by
>> > an
>> > affinity of the mind, spirit, or temperament
>> > spiritual mother of the young artist
>> >
>> >
>> > 4. refined: showing great refinement and concern with
> the
>> > higher things in life
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > re·li·gion [ ri líjj?n ] (plural
> re·li·gions)
>> >
>> >
>> > noun
>> >
>> > 1. beliefs and worship: people's beliefs
> and
>> > opinions concerning the existence, nature, and worship of a deity or
>> > deities, and divine involvement in the universe and human life
>> >
>> >
>> > 2. system: an institutionalized or
>> > personal
>> > system of beliefs and practices relating to the divine
>> >
>> >
>> > 3. personal beliefs or values: a set of
>> > strongly-held beliefs, values, and attitudes that somebody lives by
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > There is a difference
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Encarta® World English Dictionary [North American Edition] © &
>> > (P)2005
>> > Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Developed for Microsoft by
>> > Bloomsbury Publishing Plc.
>> >
>> > More Links from Our Advertisers
>> > SAT Prep
>> > Distance Learning
>> > Education Online
>> > Tutoring
>> > Online MBA
>> > Textbook
>> >
>> > >>Back to more links from Our Advertisers
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "wozza" <wozza96@_NO_SPAM_yahoo.com>
>> > Newsgroups: alt.recovery.addiction.alcoholism
>> > Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2005 4:56 AM
>> > Subject: Re: Jews and the 12-step program
>> >
>> >
>> >>> "wozza" <wozza96@_NO_SPAM_yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> >>> news:42b68d46$0$13943$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...
>> >>>> "rosie read n' post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> >>>> news:iuite.16267$lI2.7345@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>> >>>> > RELIGION is for those who are afraid of hell..................
>> >>>> > SPIRITUALITY is for those who have been there!
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > imo, AA is not a religion.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Unfortunately, your opinion counts for zilch, but the opinions of
>> >>>> are
>> >>> worth
>> >>>> taking notice.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> A.A. claims that it is a "spiritual" organization, and not
>> >>> "religious", and
>> >>>> not a religion, but there is no great difference between the words
>> >>>> "religious" and "spiritual." The distinction is artificial -- just
>> >>> another
>> >>>> deceptive word game.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> In the case of Grandberg v. Ashland County, a 1984 Federal 7th
> Circuit
>> >>> Court
>> >>>> ruling concerning judicially-mandated A.A. attendance, the court
> said:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Alcoholics Anonymous materials and the testimony of the witness
>> >>> established
>> >>>> beyond a doubt that religious activities, as defined in
> constitutional
>> >>> law,
>> >>>> were a part of the treatment program. The distinction between
> religion
>> >>> and
>> >>>> spirituality is meaningless, and serves merely to confuse the issue.
>> >>>> -- Wisconsin's District Judge John Shabaz
>> >>>>
>> >>>> All of these courts have ruled that Alcoholics Anonymous is a
> religion
>> >>> or
>> >>>> engages in religious activities:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> the Federal 7th Circuit Court in Wisconsin, 1984.
>> >>>> the Federal District Court for Southern New York, 1994.
>> >>>> the New York Court of Appeals, 1996.
>> >>>> the New York State Supreme Court, 1996.
>> >>>> the U.S. Supreme Court, 1997.
>> >>>> the Tennessee State Supreme Court.
>> >>>> the Federal 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals in New York, 1996.
>> >>>> the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit.
>> >>>> the U.S. Court of Appeals, Seventh District, 1996.
>> >>>> the Federal Appeals Court in Chicago, 1996.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The United States Supreme Court has refused to hear challenges to
>> >>> those
>> >>>> rulings, or to change or over-turn those lower court decisions. By
>> >>> letting
>> >>>> them stand, the Supreme Court has made them the law of the land.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> But there is one very important exception to that statement -- the
>> >>> Griffin
>> >>>> v. Coughlin decision, from the New York State Court of Appeals,
>> >>>> 1996,
>> >>> was
>> >>>> heard by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1997.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> In Griffin v. Coughlin, the prison inmate David Griffin complained
>> >>> that
>> >>>> state prison officials in 1991 told David Griffin, a self-described
>> >>> atheist
>> >>>> with a history of drug abuse, that in order to be eligible for
>> >>> expanded
>> >>>> family visitation privileges, including conjugal visits, he would
> have
>> >>> to
>> >>>> attend a prison rehabilitation program patterned after AA's 12-step
>> >>> model.2
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Griffin, then a prisoner at the Shawangunk Correctional Facility in
>> >>> Ulster
>> >>>> County, refused to attend the program, contending that the 12-step
>> >>> approach
>> >>>> requires participants to express a belief in a "power greater than
>> >>>> ourselves" and to "turn our will and our lives over to the care of
> God
>> >>> as we
>> >>>> understood him." These requirements, his lawsuit against the state
>> >>>> contended, violate the First Amendment's mandated separation of
> church
>> >>> and
>> >>>> state.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Griffin lost in two lower courts, but won in New York State's
>> >>>> highest
>> >>> court,
>> >>>> the New York Court of Appeals.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> In Griffin v. Coughlin, Judge Levine, writing for the court's
>> >>> majority,
>> >>>> concluded that the AA program is devoted to proselytizing for a
>> >>> religious
>> >>>> belief. The court's conclusion was based on its reading of several
>> >>> profiles
>> >>>> of early AA members as they are set forth in the AA Big Book and the
>> >>> AA
>> >>>> Twelve and Twelve.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Judge Levine said "While it is of course true that the primary
>> >>> objective of
>> >>>> A.A. is to enable its adherents to achieve sobriety, its doctrine
>> >>>> unmistakably urges that the path to staying sober and to becoming
>> >>> happily
>> >>>> and usefully whole is by wholeheartedly embracing traditional
> theistic
>> >>>> beliefs."
>> >>>>
>> >>>> From its review of AA literature, the majority concluded that the AA
>> >>> Twelve
>> >>>> Steps amount to a worship service and that the AA fellowship is
>> >>> dedicated to
>> >>>> converting alcoholics to a belief in a traditional deity.
> Accordingly,
>> >>> the
>> >>>> court found that, "The foregoing demonstrates beyond peradventure
> that
>> >>>> doctrinally and as actually practiced in the 12-step methodology,
>> >>> adherence
>> >>>> to the A.A. fellowship entails engagement in religious activity and
>> >>>> religious proselytization. Followers are urged to accept the
> existence
>> >>> of
>> >>>> God as a Supreme Being, Creator, Father of Light and Spirit of the
>> >>>> Universe."
>> >>>>
>> >>>> When the U.S. Supreme Court heard the appeal, it sided with the
>> >>> atheist
>> >>>> convict who said the New York Department of Corrections' attempt to
>> >>> link
>> >>>> extra privileges for inmates with attendance at meetings modeled
> after
>> >>>> Alcoholics Anonymous violated the constitutionally mandated
> separation
>> >>> of
>> >>>> church and state.3
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On November 14, 1999 the U.S. Supreme Court refused to overturn,
>> >>>> thus
>> >>>> allowed to stand, a ruling by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the
> Second
>> >>>> Circuit ordering that forced attendance at Narcotics Anonymous
>> >>> meetings end
>> >>>> immediately, because it was a violation of Freedom of Religion. The
>> >>> U.S.
>> >>>> Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit and the high courts of the
>> >>> states
>> >>>> of Tennessee and New York have also made the same ruling.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> -- quoted from http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-spirrel.html
>> >>>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> you clearly have your opinions, as i have
> mine..........................
>> >>> with the help of AA and my HP i will celebrate 23yrs of sobriety in
>> >>> august.
>> >>> AA has helped me to have a whole new life.
>> >>
>> >> Sorry, I really botched the first line. What I meant to say was the
>> >> opinions of the courts are what matter, because they make the laws.
> Then
>> >> I
>> >> quoted someone else's summary of many court decisions where AA was
> ruled
>> >> to be a religion. Note no court anywhere has ever ruled AA is not a
>> >> religion.
>> >>
>> >> I'm glad AA has helped you have a whole new life. The steps work well
> for
>> >> the lucky few for whom they work well. But what I care about is for
> every
>> >> one of you, there are 20 who aren't helped. That's the tragedy of AA's
>> >> religious program.
>> >>
>> >
>> > "wozza" <wozza96@_NO_SPAM_yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> > news:42ba8916$0$24005$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...
>> >>> "wozza" <wozza96@_NO_SPAM_yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> >>> news:42b68d46$0$13943$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...
>> >>>> "rosie read n' post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> >>>> news:iuite.16267$lI2.7345@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>> >>>> > RELIGION is for those who are afraid of hell..................
>> >>>> > SPIRITUALITY is for those who have been there!
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > imo, AA is not a religion.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Unfortunately, your opinion counts for zilch, but the opinions of
>> >>>> are
>> >>> worth
>> >>>> taking notice.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> A.A. claims that it is a "spiritual" organization, and not
>> >>> "religious", and
>> >>>> not a religion, but there is no great difference between the words
>> >>>> "religious" and "spiritual." The distinction is artificial -- just
>> >>> another
>> >>>> deceptive word game.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> In the case of Grandberg v. Ashland County, a 1984 Federal 7th
> Circuit
>> >>> Court
>> >>>> ruling concerning judicially-mandated A.A. attendance, the court
> said:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Alcoholics Anonymous materials and the testimony of the witness
>> >>> established
>> >>>> beyond a doubt that religious activities, as defined in
> constitutional
>> >>> law,
>> >>>> were a part of the treatment program. The distinction between
> religion
>> >>> and
>> >>>> spirituality is meaningless, and serves merely to confuse the issue.
>> >>>> -- Wisconsin's District Judge John Shabaz
>> >>>>
>> >>>> All of these courts have ruled that Alcoholics Anonymous is a
> religion
>> >>> or
>> >>>> engages in religious activities:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> the Federal 7th Circuit Court in Wisconsin, 1984.
>> >>>> the Federal District Court for Southern New York, 1994.
>> >>>> the New York Court of Appeals, 1996.
>> >>>> the New York State Supreme Court, 1996.
>> >>>> the U.S. Supreme Court, 1997.
>> >>>> the Tennessee State Supreme Court.
>> >>>> the Federal 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals in New York, 1996.
>> >>>> the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit.
>> >>>> the U.S. Court of Appeals, Seventh District, 1996.
>> >>>> the Federal Appeals Court in Chicago, 1996.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The United States Supreme Court has refused to hear challenges to
>> >>> those
>> >>>> rulings, or to change or over-turn those lower court decisions. By
>> >>> letting
>> >>>> them stand, the Supreme Court has made them the law of the land.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> But there is one very important exception to that statement -- the
>> >>> Griffin
>> >>>> v. Coughlin decision, from the New York State Court of Appeals,
>> >>>> 1996,
>> >>> was
>> >>>> heard by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1997.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> In Griffin v. Coughlin, the prison inmate David Griffin complained
>> >>> that
>> >>>> state prison officials in 1991 told David Griffin, a self-described
>> >>> atheist
>> >>>> with a history of drug abuse, that in order to be eligible for
>> >>> expanded
>> >>>> family visitation privileges, including conjugal visits, he would
> have
>> >>> to
>> >>>> attend a prison rehabilitation program patterned after AA's 12-step
>> >>> model.2
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Griffin, then a prisoner at the Shawangunk Correctional Facility in
>> >>> Ulster
>> >>>> County, refused to attend the program, contending that the 12-step
>> >>> approach
>> >>>> requires participants to express a belief in a "power greater than
>> >>>> ourselves" and to "turn our will and our lives over to the care of
> God
>> >>> as we
>> >>>> understood him." These requirements, his lawsuit against the state
>> >>>> contended, violate the First Amendment's mandated separation of
> church
>> >>> and
>> >>>> state.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Griffin lost in two lower courts, but won in New York State's
>> >>>> highest
>> >>> court,
>> >>>> the New York Court of Appeals.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> In Griffin v. Coughlin, Judge Levine, writing for the court's
>> >>> majority,
>> >>>> concluded that the AA program is devoted to proselytizing for a
>> >>> religious
>> >>>> belief. The court's conclusion was based on its reading of several
>> >>> profiles
>> >>>> of early AA members as they are set forth in the AA Big Book and the
>> >>> AA
>> >>>> Twelve and Twelve.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Judge Levine said "While it is of course true that the primary
>> >>> objective of
>> >>>> A.A. is to enable its adherents to achieve sobriety, its doctrine
>> >>>> unmistakably urges that the path to staying sober and to becoming
>> >>> happily
>> >>>> and usefully whole is by wholeheartedly embracing traditional
> theistic
>> >>>> beliefs."
>> >>>>
>> >>>> From its review of AA literature, the majority concluded that the AA
>> >>> Twelve
>> >>>> Steps amount to a worship service and that the AA fellowship is
>> >>> dedicated to
>> >>>> converting alcoholics to a belief in a traditional deity.
> Accordingly,
>> >>> the
>> >>>> court found that, "The foregoing demonstrates beyond peradventure
> that
>> >>>> doctrinally and as actually practiced in the 12-step methodology,
>> >>> adherence
>> >>>> to the A.A. fellowship entails engagement in religious activity and
>> >>>> religious proselytization. Followers are urged to accept the
> existence
>> >>> of
>> >>>> God as a Supreme Being, Creator, Father of Light and Spirit of the
>> >>>> Universe."
>> >>>>
>> >>>> When the U.S. Supreme Court heard the appeal, it sided with the
>> >>> atheist
>> >>>> convict who said the New York Department of Corrections' attempt to
>> >>> link
>> >>>> extra privileges for inmates with attendance at meetings modeled
> after
>> >>>> Alcoholics Anonymous violated the constitutionally mandated
> separation
>> >>> of
>> >>>> church and state.3
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On November 14, 1999 the U.S. Supreme Court refused to overturn,
>> >>>> thus
>> >>>> allowed to stand, a ruling by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the
> Second
>> >>>> Circuit ordering that forced attendance at Narcotics Anonymous
>> >>> meetings end
>> >>>> immediately, because it was a violation of Freedom of Religion. The
>> >>> U.S.
>> >>>> Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit and the high courts of the
>> >>> states
>> >>>> of Tennessee and New York have also made the same ruling.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> -- quoted from http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-spirrel.html
>> >>>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> you clearly have your opinions, as i have
> mine..........................
>> >>> with the help of AA and my HP i will celebrate 23yrs of sobriety in
>> >>> august.
>> >>> AA has helped me to have a whole new life.
>> >>
>> >> Sorry, I really botched the first line. What I meant to say was the
>> >> opinions of the courts are what matter, because they make the laws.
> Then
>> >> I quoted someone else's summary of many court decisions where AA was
>> >> ruled to be a religion. Note no court anywhere has ever ruled AA is
>> >> not
> a
>> >> religion.
>> >>
>> >> I'm glad AA has helped you have a whole new life. The steps work well
> for
>> >> the lucky few for whom they work well. But what I care about is for
> every
>> >> one of you, there are 20 who aren't helped. That's the tragedy of AA's
>> >> religious program.
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>

"wozza" <wozza96@_NO_SPAM_yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:42d3b5c5$0$6080$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au ...
> It's a religion. AA exists to bring people into Frank Buchman's sytem of
> belief and practice.
>
> It does matter what some judge said, becuase that becomes the law of the
> land. Very few people coming into AA will be told that "the distinction
> between religion and spirituality is meaningless, and serves merely to
> confuse the issue." I just want more "rigourous honesty" and less denial.
>
> AA ignores the question of Disease vs Conditioned behaviour (if indeed
> that is the right question to be asking), because AA's answer can't stand
> up to any kind of rational analysis. The insistence on the primacy of
> practice as against rational thought is the hallmark of cults everywhere.
>
> All the big book and steps have to offer is magic and superstition ("that
> is the miracle of it... so long as we keep in fit spiritual condition").
> As I always say, it works well for the lucky few for whom it works well.
> But the majority of people find it no help at all, and they deserve
> better.
>
> I go to AA meetings. Meeting with other alcoholics helps me somewhat.
> Other things help me also. My hope is that AA can outgrow its religious
> background, and truly offer something for everyone who seeks. That means
> giving up this insistence on religious faith as the only answer. The group
> I go to has done that. Perhaps yours has too.
>
>> Yep,
>>
>> It's a God thing -- not really Jewish or Christian or Hindu or Buddhist
>> or
>> Wiccan or Native American or a host of other "religions" -- but it is
>> indeedy a God thing.
>>
>> AA is not for everyone - It is not the only way one might get sober - AA
>> as
>> an organization says that AA does not have the "corner" on sobriety.
>> There
>> are and will always be those within AA and those not affiliated who might
>> tell you otherwise - that is less AA and more human nature. History and
>> Science has not finitely defined the answer to the question of Disease or
>> Conditioned Behavior, but there are those who will argue otherwise until
>> "hell freezes over." As a group, we have found the answer to that
>> question
>> is less meaningful as the action required to overcome the problem.
>>
>> As the loosely designed organization that we are, we are still little
>> more
>> than thousands of groups of nameless alcoholics who have found a way to
>> keep
>> each other sober. We truly have little more to offer than this program
>> of
>> 12 steps and our own experience, strength and hope. As alcoholics, many
>> of
>> have been where others are and found a way out. We have found among
>> ourselves we basically selfish, self-centered lot and, that ultimately,
>> this
>> selfish and self-centered thought and behavior was and is the cause of
>> most,
>> if not all, of our problems in dealing with the people around us.
>>
>> We have found in our belief that there is a power greater than ourselves
>> that we could be restored to sanity. As individuals and as a group, we
>> are
>> unwilling to turn to another human being as this higher power, so yes, we
>> turn to God - a God of our individual understanding. For me the belief
>> is
>> more about acceptance and less about reliance; although, there are many
>> who
>> argue otherwise.
>>
>> As vehemently as Ken Ragge, the alocure publishers and wozza will argue
>> that
>> AA will not help you get sober - there are others who will argue that AA
>> is
>> the only way to get sober. I have these folks to simply be two faces of
>> the
>> same coin. For these folks everything must either be A or B, with
>> nothing
>> in between.
>> Oh, were life so simple.... I have learned in my AA experience that
>> nothing in life is so well defined as "Black or White" -- we exist within
>> the thousands of Greys that lie between the radicals and the
>> reactionaries -- both of whom I personally have little use for.
>>
>> Ultimately, I think it matters little what some judge somewhere said --
>> it
>> will not increase or decrease the number of alcoholics nor the number of
>> people in AA or any other program of recovery. However, it is a
>> wonderful
>> topic for a bunch of selfish, self-centered megalomaniacs to waste time
>> discussing. It is so much more interesting than getting about the
>> business
>> of getting sober.
>>
>> There are many kinds of sobriety out there.... I suggest you had better
>> pick
>> on you like. And if AAs odds are 1 in 20 -- it's gotta be the best game
>> in
>> town.
>>
>> Bobby L
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:zGlAe.58856$Tt.50521@bignews3.bellsouth.net.. .
>>
>> "wozza" <wozza96@_NO_SPAM_yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:42d10d11$0$20857$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...
>>> tell it to the judge...
>>>
>>> did you read what I posted? Could you really not understand it?. Here it
>> is
>>> again in case you missed it:
>>> In the case of Grandberg v. Ashland County, a 1984 Federal 7th Circuit
>> Court
>>> ruling concerning judicially-mandated A.A. attendance, the court said:
>>> "Alcoholics Anonymous materials and the testimony of the witness
>> established
>>> beyond a doubt that religious activities, as defined in constitutional
>> law,
>>> were a part of the treatment program. The distinction between religion
>>> and
>>> spirituality is meaningless, and serves merely to confuse the issue." --
>>> Wisconsin's District Judge John Shabaz
>>>
>>> Which part of that do you not understand?
>>>
>>> What about your own definition? Did you not read it before you posted
>>> it?
>>> The second sense of spiritual actually does say, religious. All three
>> senses
>>> of religion you quoted sum up AA pretty well. If really "there is a
>>> difference", you won't find it in AA.
>>>
>>> Came to believe in a power greater than ourselves?
>>> Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God?
>>> Admitted to God our wrongs?
>>> Humbly asked Him?
>>> Sought through prayer and medition to improve our conscious contact?
>>> Knowledge of his will? Power to carry that out?
>>> Having had a spiritual awakening?
>>>
>>> Much better to take this advice from the big book:
>>> "Upon therapy for the alcoholic himself, surely we have no monopoly"
>>> "Our book is meant to be suggestive only. We realise we know only a
>> little"
>>>
>>>
>>> "Rob & Laura Frazier" <rflf@machlink.com> wrote in message
>>> news:11cuqcc8ok5g1f0@corp.supernews.com...
>>> > spiritual
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > spir·i·tu·al [ spírrichoo ?l ]
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > adjective
>>> >
>>> > 1. of soul: relating to the soul or spirit, usually
>>> > in
>>> > contrast to material things
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > 2. of religion: relating to religious or sacred
>>> > things
>>> > rather than worldly things
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > 3. temperamentally or intellectually akin: connected
>>> > by
>>> > an
>>> > affinity of the mind, spirit, or temperament
>>> > spiritual mother of the young artist
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > 4. refined: showing great refinement and concern with
>> the
>>> > higher things in life
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > re·li·gion [ ri líjj?n ] (plural
>> re·li·gions)
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > noun
>>> >
>>> > 1. beliefs and worship: people's beliefs
>> and
>>> > opinions concerning the existence, nature, and worship of a deity or
>>> > deities, and divine involvement in the universe and human life
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > 2. system: an institutionalized or
>>> > personal
>>> > system of beliefs and practices relating to the divine
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > 3. personal beliefs or values: a set of
>>> > strongly-held beliefs, values, and attitudes that somebody lives by
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > There is a difference
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Encarta® World English Dictionary [North American Edition] © &
>>> > (P)2005
>>> > Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Developed for Microsoft by
>>> > Bloomsbury Publishing Plc.
>>> >
>>> > More Links from Our Advertisers
>>> > SAT Prep
>>> > Distance Learning
>>> > Education Online
>>> > Tutoring
>>> > Online MBA
>>> > Textbook
>>> >
>>> > >>Back to more links from Our Advertisers
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>> > From: "wozza" <wozza96@_NO_SPAM_yahoo.com>
>>> > Newsgroups: alt.recovery.addiction.alcoholism
>>> > Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2005 4:56 AM
>>> > Subject: Re: Jews and the 12-step program
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >>> "wozza" <wozza96@_NO_SPAM_yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> >>> news:42b68d46$0$13943$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...
>>> >>>> "rosie read n' post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> >>>> news:iuite.16267$lI2.7345@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>>> >>>> > RELIGION is for those who are afraid of hell..................
>>> >>>> > SPIRITUALITY is for those who have been there!
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> > imo, AA is not a religion.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Unfortunately, your opinion counts for zilch, but the opinions of
>>> >>>> are
>>> >>> worth
>>> >>>> taking notice.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> A.A. claims that it is a "spiritual" organization, and not
>>> >>> "religious", and
>>> >>>> not a religion, but there is no great difference between the words
>>> >>>> "religious" and "spiritual." The distinction is artificial -- just
>>> >>> another
>>> >>>> deceptive word game.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> In the case of Grandberg v. Ashland County, a 1984 Federal 7th
>> Circuit
>>> >>> Court
>>> >>>> ruling concerning judicially-mandated A.A. attendance, the court
>> said:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Alcoholics Anonymous materials and the testimony of the witness
>>> >>> established
>>> >>>> beyond a doubt that religious activities, as defined in
>> constitutional
>>> >>> law,
>>> >>>> were a part of the treatment program. The distinction between
>> religion
>>> >>> and
>>> >>>> spirituality is meaningless, and serves merely to confuse the
>>> >>>> issue.
>>> >>>> -- Wisconsin's District Judge John Shabaz
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> All of these courts have ruled that Alcoholics Anonymous is a
>> religion
>>> >>> or
>>> >>>> engages in religious activities:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> the Federal 7th Circuit Court in Wisconsin, 1984.
>>> >>>> the Federal District Court for Southern New York, 1994.
>>> >>>> the New York Court of Appeals, 1996.
>>> >>>> the New York State Supreme Court, 1996.
>>> >>>> the U.S. Supreme Court, 1997.
>>> >>>> the Tennessee State Supreme Court.
>>> >>>> the Federal 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals in New York, 1996.
>>> >>>> the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit.
>>> >>>> the U.S. Court of Appeals, Seventh District, 1996.
>>> >>>> the Federal Appeals Court in Chicago, 1996.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> The United States Supreme Court has refused to hear challenges to
>>> >>> those
>>> >>>> rulings, or to change or over-turn those lower court decisions. By
>>> >>> letting
>>> >>>> them stand, the Supreme Court has made them the law of the land.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> But there is one very important exception to that statement -- the
>>> >>> Griffin
>>> >>>> v. Coughlin decision, from the New York State Court of Appeals,
>>> >>>> 1996,
>>> >>> was
>>> >>>> heard by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1997.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> In Griffin v. Coughlin, the prison inmate David Griffin complained
>>> >>> that
>>> >>>> state prison officials in 1991 told David Griffin, a self-described
>>> >>> atheist
>>> >>>> with a history of drug abuse, that in order to be eligible for
>>> >>> expanded
>>> >>>> family visitation privileges, including conjugal visits, he would
>> have
>>> >>> to
>>> >>>> attend a prison rehabilitation program patterned after AA's 12-step
>>> >>> model.2
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Griffin, then a prisoner at the Shawangunk Correctional Facility in
>>> >>> Ulster
>>> >>>> County, refused to attend the program, contending that the 12-step
>>> >>> approach
>>> >>>> requires participants to express a belief in a "power greater than
>>> >>>> ourselves" and to "turn our will and our lives over to the care of
>> God
>>> >>> as we
>>> >>>> understood him." These requirements, his lawsuit against the state
>>> >>>> contended, violate the First Amendment's mandated separation of
>> church
>>> >>> and
>>> >>>> state.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Griffin lost in two lower courts, but won in New York State's
>>> >>>> highest
>>> >>> court,
>>> >>>> the New York Court of Appeals.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> In Griffin v. Coughlin, Judge Levine, writing for the court's
>>> >>> majority,
>>> >>>> concluded that the AA program is devoted to proselytizing for a
>>> >>> religious
>>> >>>> belief. The court's conclusion was based on its reading of several
>>> >>> profiles
>>> >>>> of early AA members as they are set forth in the AA Big Book and
>>> >>>> the
>>> >>> AA
>>> >>>> Twelve and Twelve.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Judge Levine said "While it is of course true that the primary
>>> >>> objective of
>>> >>>> A.A. is to enable its adherents to achieve sobriety, its doctrine
>>> >>>> unmistakably urges that the path to staying sober and to becoming
>>> >>> happily
>>> >>>> and usefully whole is by wholeheartedly embracing traditional
>> theistic
>>> >>>> beliefs."
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> From its review of AA literature, the majority concluded that the
>>> >>>> AA
>>> >>> Twelve
>>> >>>> Steps amount to a worship service and that the AA fellowship is
>>> >>> dedicated to
>>> >>>> converting alcoholics to a belief in a traditional deity.
>> Accordingly,
>>> >>> the
>>> >>>> court found that, "The foregoing demonstrates beyond peradventure
>> that
>>> >>>> doctrinally and as actually practiced in the 12-step methodology,
>>> >>> adherence
>>> >>>> to the A.A. fellowship entails engagement in religious activity and
>>> >>>> religious proselytization. Followers are urged to accept the
>> existence
>>> >>> of
>>> >>>> God as a Supreme Being, Creator, Father of Light and Spirit of the
>>> >>>> Universe."
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> When the U.S. Supreme Court heard the appeal, it sided with the
>>> >>> atheist
>>> >>>> convict who said the New York Department of Corrections' attempt to
>>> >>> link
>>> >>>> extra privileges for inmates with attendance at meetings modeled
>> after
>>> >>>> Alcoholics Anonymous violated the constitutionally mandated
>> separation
>>> >>> of
>>> >>>> church and state.3
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> On November 14, 1999 the U.S. Supreme Court refused to overturn,
>>> >>>> thus
>>> >>>> allowed to stand, a ruling by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the
>> Second
>>> >>>> Circuit ordering that forced attendance at Narcotics Anonymous
>>> >>> meetings end
>>> >>>> immediately, because it was a violation of Freedom of Religion. The
>>> >>> U.S.
>>> >>>> Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit and the high courts of the
>>> >>> states
>>> >>>> of Tennessee and New York have also made the same ruling.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> -- quoted from http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-spirrel.html
>>> >>>>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>> you clearly have your opinions, as i have
>> mine..........................
>>> >>> with the help of AA and my HP i will celebrate 23yrs of sobriety in
>>> >>> august.
>>> >>> AA has helped me to have a whole new life.
>>> >>
>>> >> Sorry, I really botched the first line. What I meant to say was the
>>> >> opinions of the courts are what matter, because they make the laws.
>> Then
>>> >> I
>>> >> quoted someone else's summary of many court decisions where AA was
>> ruled
>>> >> to be a religion. Note no court anywhere has ever ruled AA is not a
>>> >> religion.
>>> >>
>>> >> I'm glad AA has helped you have a whole new life. The steps work well
>> for
>>> >> the lucky few for whom they work well. But what I care about is for
>> every
>>> >> one of you, there are 20 who aren't helped. That's the tragedy of
>>> >> AA's
>>> >> religious program.
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> > "wozza" <wozza96@_NO_SPAM_yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> > news:42ba8916$0$24005$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...
>>> >>> "wozza" <wozza96@_NO_SPAM_yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> >>> news:42b68d46$0$13943$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...
>>> >>>> "rosie read n' post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> >>>> news:iuite.16267$lI2.7345@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>>> >>>> > RELIGION is for those who are afraid of hell..................
>>> >>>> > SPIRITUALITY is for those who have been there!
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> > imo, AA is not a religion.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Unfortunately, your opinion counts for zilch, but the opinions of
>>> >>>> are
>>> >>> worth
>>> >>>> taking notice.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> A.A. claims that it is a "spiritual" organization, and not
>>> >>> "religious", and
>>> >>>> not a religion, but there is no great difference between the words
>>> >>>> "religious" and "spiritual." The distinction is artificial -- just
>>> >>> another
>>> >>>> deceptive word game.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> In the case of Grandberg v. Ashland County, a 1984 Federal 7th
>> Circuit
>>> >>> Court
>>> >>>> ruling concerning judicially-mandated A.A. attendance, the court
>> said:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Alcoholics Anonymous materials and the testimony of the witness
>>> >>> established
>>> >>>> beyond a doubt that religious activities, as defined in
>> constitutional
>>> >>> law,
>>> >>>> were a part of the treatment program. The distinction between
>> religion
>>> >>> and
>>> >>>> spirituality is meaningless, and serves merely to confuse the
>>> >>>> issue.
>>> >>>> -- Wisconsin's District Judge John Shabaz
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> All of these courts have ruled that Alcoholics Anonymous is a
>> religion
>>> >>> or
>>> >>>> engages in religious activities:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> the Federal 7th Circuit Court in Wisconsin, 1984.
>>> >>>> the Federal District Court for Southern New York, 1994.
>>> >>>> the New York Court of Appeals, 1996.
>>> >>>> the New York State Supreme Court, 1996.
>>> >>>> the U.S. Supreme Court, 1997.
>>> >>>> the Tennessee State Supreme Court.
>>> >>>> the Federal 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals in New York, 1996.
>>> >>>> the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit.
>>> >>>> the U.S. Court of Appeals, Seventh District, 1996.
>>> >>>> the Federal Appeals Court in Chicago, 1996.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> The United States Supreme Court has refused to hear challenges to
>>> >>> those
>>> >>>> rulings, or to change or over-turn those lower court decisions. By
>>> >>> letting
>>> >>>> them stand, the Supreme Court has made them the law of the land.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> But there is one very important exception to that statement -- the
>>> >>> Griffin
>>> >>>> v. Coughlin decision, from the New York State Court of Appeals,
>>> >>>> 1996,
>>> >>> was
>>> >>>> heard by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1997.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> In Griffin v. Coughlin, the prison inmate David Griffin complained
>>> >>> that
>>> >>>> state prison officials in 1991 told David Griffin, a self-described
>>> >>> atheist
>>> >>>> with a history of drug abuse, that in order to be eligible for
>>> >>> expanded
>>> >>>> family visitation privileges, including conjugal visits, he would
>> have
>>> >>> to
>>> >>>> attend a prison rehabilitation program patterned after AA's 12-step
>>> >>> model.2
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Griffin, then a prisoner at the Shawangunk Correctional Facility in
>>> >>> Ulster
>>> >>>> County, refused to attend the program, contending that the 12-step
>>> >>> approach
>>> >>>> requires participants to express a belief in a "power greater than
>>> >>>> ourselves" and to "turn our will and our lives over to the care of
>> God
>>> >>> as we
>>> >>>> understood him." These requirements, his lawsuit against the state
>>> >>>> contended, violate the First Amendment's mandated separation of
>> church
>>> >>> and
>>> >>>> state.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Griffin lost in two lower courts, but won in New York State's
>>> >>>> highest
>>> >>> court,
>>> >>>> the New York Court of Appeals.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> In Griffin v. Coughlin, Judge Levine, writing for the court's
>>> >>> majority,
>>> >>>> concluded that the AA program is devoted to proselytizing for a
>>> >>> religious
>>> >>>> belief. The court's conclusion was based on its reading of several
>>> >>> profiles
>>> >>>> of early AA members as they are set forth in the AA Big Book and
>>> >>>> the
>>> >>> AA
>>> >>>> Twelve and Twelve.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Judge Levine said "While it is of course true that the primary
>>> >>> objective of
>>> >>>> A.A. is to enable its adherents to achieve sobriety, its doctrine
>>> >>>> unmistakably urges that the path to staying sober and to becoming
>>> >>> happily
>>> >>>> and usefully whole is by wholeheartedly embracing traditional
>> theistic
>>> >>>> beliefs."
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> From its review of AA literature, the majority concluded that the
>>> >>>> AA
>>> >>> Twelve
>>> >>>> Steps amount to a worship service and that the AA fellowship is
>>> >>> dedicated to
>>> >>>> converting alcoholics to a belief in a traditional deity.
>> Accordingly,
>>> >>> the
>>> >>>> court found that, "The foregoing demonstrates beyond peradventure
>> that
>>> >>>> doctrinally and as actually practiced in the 12-step methodology,
>>> >>> adherence
>>> >>>> to the A.A. fellowship entails engagement in religious activity and
>>> >>>> religious proselytization. Followers are urged to accept the
>> existence
>>> >>> of
>>> >>>> God as a Supreme Being, Creator, Father of Light and Spirit of the
>>> >>>> Universe."
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> When the U.S. Supreme Court heard the appeal, it sided with the
>>> >>> atheist
>>> >>>> convict who said the New York Department of Corrections' attempt to
>>> >>> link
>>> >>>> extra privileges for inmates with attendance at meetings modeled
>> after
>>> >>>> Alcoholics Anonymous violated the constitutionally mandated
>> separation
>>> >>> of
>>> >>>> church and state.3
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> On November 14, 1999 the U.S. Supreme Court refused to overturn,
>>> >>>> thus
>>> >>>> allowed to stand, a ruling by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the
>> Second
>>> >>>> Circuit ordering that forced attendance at Narcotics Anonymous
>>> >>> meetings end
>>> >>>> immediately, because it was a violation of Freedom of Religion. The
>>> >>> U.S.
>>> >>>> Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit and the high courts of the
>>> >>> states
>>> >>>> of Tennessee and New York have also made the same ruling.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> -- quoted from http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-spirrel.html
>>> >>>>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>> you clearly have your opinions, as i have
>> mine..........................
>>> >>> with the help of AA and my HP i will celebrate 23yrs of sobriety in
>>> >>> august.
>>> >>> AA has helped me to have a whole new life.
>>> >>
>>> >> Sorry, I really botched the first line. What I meant to say was the
>>> >> opinions of the courts are what matter, because they make the laws.
>> Then
>>> >> I quoted someone else's summary of many court decisions where AA was
>>> >> ruled to be a religion. Note no court anywhere has ever ruled AA is
>>> >> not
>> a
>>> >> religion.
>>> >>
>>> >> I'm glad AA has helped you have a whole new life. The steps work well
>> for
>>> >> the lucky few for whom they work well. But what I care about is for
>> every
>>> >> one of you, there are 20 who aren't helped. That's the tragedy of
>>> >> AA's
>>> >> religious program.

I also believe that we must listen to the court system, for it is part of my
sentence to attend aa meetings and to provide proff of attendance
I also believe we must listen to our health proffesionals, who also send
many of their patience to aa for rehab and request records of their
attendance We may not be able to pray in public places for it infringes on
people rights of relgion.But that same system supports aa as a possible
solution for many. Yes 1 of 20 seems low but i would suspect that is in part
due to the amount of drug and alcohol patience who attend only to please the
courts and\or the medical proffesion, not because they have a genuine desire
to stop using. I'm don't know much of the Jewish religion or for any other
for that matter, but doesn't the Jewish religion believe in "God" or a
"Creator"? Just curious about that because I really don't know the answer.
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>
>
>

"dan mcgown" <dmcgown@adelphia.net> wrote in
news:3I2dnTONCt_QVzLfRVn-sg@adelphia.com:

>
> "The Glass Prison" <glassprison51@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1118813333.837757.38360@o13g2000cwo.googlegro ups.com...
>> OK! That fucking does it! Enough of this shit!
>>
>> If you are a member and believer of any 12-step program, YOU ARE NOT
>> or WILL NEVER BE MY FRIEND. I dislike 12-step groupers and it's taken
>> me
>
> I can't begin to tell you how devastated we all are by your
> rejection.
> How will we ever go on? Seriously, instead of just screaming and
> calling names, why don't you try to get control of the anger so that
> you can rationally explain specifically what it is that has made you
> so angry.
> If you really want to make your point effectively, yelling won't
> convince anyone while a reasoned explanation might pursuade someone to
> agree with you.
>
>
>

i do agree with you go out and buy ten foils of smack one bottle of scotch
and one hundred clonazapam

12 steps are a reasonable approach to improving ones self but it provides
little to know value in actually staying "off" the stuff.

12 step programs end up being full of people with diminished life
expectations! Saying things like although my wife left, I got fired from my
job, I am broke, homeless, and family wont talk to me "ITS ALL GOOD BECAUSE
I AM SOBER"/

After 5 years clean seeing someone who is sharing a 2 bedroom apartment and
working 12 hours a week and is satisfied with this ....does not equal a
successful program
"JanAust" <jan.volkmer@removethis.gmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns97D882F63B0F4bvolkmerbigpondnetau@203.16.2 14.243...
> "dan mcgown" <dmcgown@adelphia.net> wrote in
> news:3I2dnTONCt_QVzLfRVn-sg@adelphia.com:
>
>>
>> "The Glass Prison" <glassprison51@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1118813333.837757.38360@o13g2000cwo.googlegro ups.com...
>>> OK! That fucking does it! Enough of this shit!
>>>
>>> If you are a member and believer of any 12-step program, YOU ARE NOT
>>> or WILL NEVER BE MY FRIEND. I dislike 12-step groupers and it's taken
>>> me
>>
>> I can't begin to tell you how devastated we all are by your
>> rejection.
>> How will we ever go on? Seriously, instead of just screaming and
>> calling names, why don't you try to get control of the anger so that
>> you can rationally explain specifically what it is that has made you
>> so angry.
>> If you really want to make your point effectively, yelling won't
>> convince anyone while a reasoned explanation might pursuade someone to
>> agree with you.
>>
>>
>>
>
> i do agree with you go out and buy ten foils of smack one bottle of scotch
> and one hundred clonazapam