I may take you up on that Ken. I briefly looked at "morerevealed" and
perhaps I may tell my stories. They involve my life nearly taken twice
at both Betty Ford and Hazelden after being drug-free for over two
weeks each time. These things shouldn't happen at what they call "a
safe place". It makes me shudder and cry when I think about it. I still
have my written diaries and witnesses and it makes a good story. I'll
try if I can (always wanted to), but sometimes it's better to put the
past behind you.

Of course, I am angry at myself and not because I made poor decisions
that got me to treatment. What happened to me there was not my fault.
It's like someone being admitted to a hospital for a drug overdose and
the next day, they slip on a mopped wet floor and break their leg. Who
is to blame for this? The fine upstanding hospital or the low-life
junkie just for being there? I know who society and certainly the
state, judge, jury, and insurance companies would choose.

I still have ongoing issues and who better to let my anger out at than
the individuals who nearly took my life twice, and then tried to "blow
it off" with a fairy tale (the 12-step program). They were the people
(and places) that I trusted in, wanted to love and believe in. But
tragedy struck, twice, and I saw everything was disguised.

Thanks for your understanding response.

PS> I am a raised Roman Catholic, driven by fear and guilt. Need I say
more?

"The Glass Prison" <glassprison51@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1118856383.594986.47950@f14g2000cwb.googlegro ups.com...
>I may take you up on that Ken. I briefly looked at "morerevealed" and
> perhaps I may tell my stories. They involve my life nearly taken twice
> at both Betty Ford and Hazelden after being drug-free for over two
> weeks each time. These things shouldn't happen at what they call "a
> safe place". It makes me shudder and cry when I think about it. I still
> have my written diaries and witnesses and it makes a good story. I'll
> try if I can (always wanted to), but sometimes it's better to put the
> past behind you.
>
> Of course, I am angry at myself and not because I made poor decisions
> that got me to treatment. What happened to me there was not my fault.
> It's like someone being admitted to a hospital for a drug overdose and
> the next day, they slip on a mopped wet floor and break their leg. Who
> is to blame for this? The fine upstanding hospital or the low-life
> junkie just for being there? I know who society and certainly the
> state, judge, jury, and insurance companies would choose.
>
> I still have ongoing issues and who better to let my anger out at than
> the individuals who nearly took my life twice, and then tried to "blow
> it off" with a fairy tale (the 12-step program). They were the people
> (and places) that I trusted in, wanted to love and believe in. But
> tragedy struck, twice, and I saw everything was disguised.
>
> Thanks for your understanding response.
>
> PS> I am a raised Roman Catholic, driven by fear and guilt. Need I say
> more?

Sure, sounds like you are still living with a painful past, ie still unwell.
Best of luck in your future...

On 14 Jun 2005 21:50:51 -0700, "The Glass Prison"
<glassprison51@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Chris,
>
>I have so much anger inside me regarding the 12-step program and
>treatment centers, but I can't reply to your post at the moment. I will
>post it in a few days under a new topic. Please watch for it.
>
>I wish I had a friend like you to talk to about this. Judging from your
>story, we have a lot in common. But do want is best for yourself and
>don't let a fear-provoking group make you surrender to them.
>
>You can't surrender to a chemical, only people and their beliefs.
>Remember that.
>
>Thank you for your honesty,
>Phil
>

Damn, I better stop going to to those meeting, I didnt realize they
were so bad

Regards

Daveb

Gone, like the winds of shit eh kenneth?
"stuart" <ggo@feds.org> wrote in message
news:7z_re.62167$9A2.51441@edtnps89...
>
> "The Glass Prison" <glassprison51@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1118856383.594986.47950@f14g2000cwb.googlegro ups.com...
>>I may take you up on that Ken. I briefly looked at "morerevealed" and
>> perhaps I may tell my stories. They involve my life nearly taken twice
>> at both Betty Ford and Hazelden after being drug-free for over two
>> weeks each time. These things shouldn't happen at what they call "a
>> safe place". It makes me shudder and cry when I think about it. I still
>> have my written diaries and witnesses and it makes a good story. I'll
>> try if I can (always wanted to), but sometimes it's better to put the
>> past behind you.
>>
>> Of course, I am angry at myself and not because I made poor decisions
>> that got me to treatment. What happened to me there was not my fault.
>> It's like someone being admitted to a hospital for a drug overdose and
>> the next day, they slip on a mopped wet floor and break their leg. Who
>> is to blame for this? The fine upstanding hospital or the low-life
>> junkie just for being there? I know who society and certainly the
>> state, judge, jury, and insurance companies would choose.
>>
>> I still have ongoing issues and who better to let my anger out at than
>> the individuals who nearly took my life twice, and then tried to "blow
>> it off" with a fairy tale (the 12-step program). They were the people
>> (and places) that I trusted in, wanted to love and believe in. But
>> tragedy struck, twice, and I saw everything was disguised.
>>
>> Thanks for your understanding response.
>>
>> PS> I am a raised Roman Catholic, driven by fear and guilt. Need I say
>> more?
>
> Sure, sounds like you are still living with a painful past, ie still
> unwell. Best of luck in your future...
>

The Glass Prison wrote:
> I may take you up on that Ken. I briefly looked at "morerevealed" and
> perhaps I may tell my stories. They involve my life nearly taken twice
> at both Betty Ford and Hazelden after being drug-free for over two
> weeks each time. These things shouldn't happen at what they call "a
> safe place". It makes me shudder and cry when I think about it. I still
> have my written diaries and witnesses and it makes a good story. I'll
> try if I can (always wanted to), but sometimes it's better to put the
> past behind you.
>
> Of course, I am angry at myself and not because I made poor decisions
> that got me to treatment. What happened to me there was not my fault.
> It's like someone being admitted to a hospital for a drug overdose and
> the next day, they slip on a mopped wet floor and break their leg. Who
> is to blame for this? The fine upstanding hospital or the low-life
> junkie just for being there? I know who society and certainly the
> state, judge, jury, and insurance companies would choose.
>
> I still have ongoing issues and who better to let my anger out at than
> the individuals who nearly took my life twice, and then tried to "blow
> it off" with a fairy tale (the 12-step program). They were the people
> (and places) that I trusted in, wanted to love and believe in. But
> tragedy struck, twice, and I saw everything was disguised.
>
> Thanks for your understanding response.
>
> PS> I am a raised Roman Catholic, driven by fear and guilt. Need I say
> more?
>

Being angry can be a tremendous resource to do the things you need to
do. Good luck with it.

I think another important thing is to try to see that such things don't
happen to others.

Ken
http://www.morerevealed.com

PS> Unfortunately, being raised a Roman Catholic isn't the only way to
end up driven by guilt and fear. I was raised Protestant, and I'd hate
to leave out my Jewish friends.

"Ken Ragge" <ken@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:XdidnfOkHNvQMy3fRVn-pg@comcast.com...
> The Glass Prison wrote:
>> I may take you up on that Ken. I briefly looked at "morerevealed" and
>> perhaps I may tell my stories. They involve my life nearly taken twice
>> at both Betty Ford and Hazelden after being drug-free for over two
>> weeks each time. These things shouldn't happen at what they call "a
>> safe place". It makes me shudder and cry when I think about it. I still
>> have my written diaries and witnesses and it makes a good story. I'll
>> try if I can (always wanted to), but sometimes it's better to put the
>> past behind you.
>>
>> Of course, I am angry at myself and not because I made poor decisions
>> that got me to treatment. What happened to me there was not my fault.
>> It's like someone being admitted to a hospital for a drug overdose and
>> the next day, they slip on a mopped wet floor and break their leg. Who
>> is to blame for this? The fine upstanding hospital or the low-life
>> junkie just for being there? I know who society and certainly the
>> state, judge, jury, and insurance companies would choose.
>>
>> I still have ongoing issues and who better to let my anger out at than
>> the individuals who nearly took my life twice, and then tried to "blow
>> it off" with a fairy tale (the 12-step program). They were the people
>> (and places) that I trusted in, wanted to love and believe in. But
>> tragedy struck, twice, and I saw everything was disguised.
>>
>> Thanks for your understanding response.
>>
>> PS> I am a raised Roman Catholic, driven by fear and guilt. Need I say
>> more?
>>
>
> Being angry can be a tremendous resource to do the things you need to do.

Sure, and a whole pile of other shit he don't need to do...


Good luck with it.

25 to life...
>
> I think another important thing is to try to see that such things don't
> happen to others.
>
> Ken
> http://www.morerevealed.com
>
> PS> Unfortunately, being raised a Roman Catholic isn't the only way to end
> up driven by guilt and fear. I was raised Protestant, and I'd hate to
> leave out my Jewish friends.

stuart wrote:

> The Glass Prison <glassprison51@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1118854166.979833.243990@z14g2000cwz.googlegr oups.com...
>
>>I know that I can not pursuade any member of a group to agree with me
>>on a subject that threatens to destroy part of that group's belief. I
>>have anger and have found the perfect forum where I scream, and yell,
>>and call names knowing that even if I am calm and rational, I will
>>never get any grouper to agree. So why bother to make an effective
>>point? No one knows who I am anyway and I won't get a standing ovation.
>>
>>No grouper, especially religious and 12-steppers, will ever agree with
>>anyone's beliefs that are different from outside the group.
>>
>>And quite frankly, I don't think you can challenge that last statement.
>>After all, isn't all this based on belief and not fact?
>
>
> I think you have a very deeply prejudiced and narrow viewpoint if you feel
> that "groupers believe" this, that or anything else.
>

Stuart,

Please, understanding that the Steps are a religious indoctrination
program and people are at different stages, can you really say that
there aren't certain things that groupers _don't_ fervently believe?
For instance, they certainly believe that their Salvation comes through
AA, they certainly believe that the Rescuing Deity/Personal God of the
Steps/Oxford Group will "restore them to sanity. They believe in the
need for public (at a service, not at the mall) confession of
sins/defects of character. The list goes on and on. Perhaps most
importantly, and sadly, is that they believe somehow they will be made
whole rather than simply spend life at war with the part of themselves
that knows the religion is nonsense.

Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com

stuart wrote:

> "The Glass Prison" <glassprison51@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1118856383.594986.47950@f14g2000cwb.googlegro ups.com...
>
>>I may take you up on that Ken. I briefly looked at "morerevealed" and
>>perhaps I may tell my stories. They involve my life nearly taken twice
>>at both Betty Ford and Hazelden after being drug-free for over two
>>weeks each time. These things shouldn't happen at what they call "a
>>safe place". It makes me shudder and cry when I think about it. I still
>>have my written diaries and witnesses and it makes a good story. I'll
>>try if I can (always wanted to), but sometimes it's better to put the
>>past behind you.
>>
>>Of course, I am angry at myself and not because I made poor decisions
>>that got me to treatment. What happened to me there was not my fault.
>>It's like someone being admitted to a hospital for a drug overdose and
>>the next day, they slip on a mopped wet floor and break their leg. Who
>>is to blame for this? The fine upstanding hospital or the low-life
>>junkie just for being there? I know who society and certainly the
>>state, judge, jury, and insurance companies would choose.
>>
>>I still have ongoing issues and who better to let my anger out at than
>>the individuals who nearly took my life twice, and then tried to "blow
>>it off" with a fairy tale (the 12-step program). They were the people
>>(and places) that I trusted in, wanted to love and believe in. But
>>tragedy struck, twice, and I saw everything was disguised.
>>
>>Thanks for your understanding response.
>>
>>PS> I am a raised Roman Catholic, driven by fear and guilt. Need I say
>>more?
>
>
> Sure, sounds like you are still living with a painful past, ie still unwell.
> Best of luck in your future...
>
>
What does "unwell" mean? Do you think there is something wrong with
being angry when you've been seriously fucked over? Do you think Rosa
Parks had it all wrong and should have just "turned it over" and sat at
the back of the bus?

Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com

stuart wrote:

> "Ken Ragge" <ken@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:XdidnfOkHNvQMy3fRVn-pg@comcast.com...
>
>>The Glass Prison wrote:
>>
>>>I may take you up on that Ken. I briefly looked at "morerevealed" and
>>>perhaps I may tell my stories. They involve my life nearly taken twice
>>>at both Betty Ford and Hazelden after being drug-free for over two
>>>weeks each time. These things shouldn't happen at what they call "a
>>>safe place". It makes me shudder and cry when I think about it. I still
>>>have my written diaries and witnesses and it makes a good story. I'll
>>>try if I can (always wanted to), but sometimes it's better to put the
>>>past behind you.
>>>
>>>Of course, I am angry at myself and not because I made poor decisions
>>>that got me to treatment. What happened to me there was not my fault.
>>>It's like someone being admitted to a hospital for a drug overdose and
>>>the next day, they slip on a mopped wet floor and break their leg. Who
>>>is to blame for this? The fine upstanding hospital or the low-life
>>>junkie just for being there? I know who society and certainly the
>>>state, judge, jury, and insurance companies would choose.
>>>
>>>I still have ongoing issues and who better to let my anger out at than
>>>the individuals who nearly took my life twice, and then tried to "blow
>>>it off" with a fairy tale (the 12-step program). They were the people
>>>(and places) that I trusted in, wanted to love and believe in. But
>>>tragedy struck, twice, and I saw everything was disguised.
>>>
>>>Thanks for your understanding response.
>>>
>>>PS> I am a raised Roman Catholic, driven by fear and guilt. Need I say
>>>more?
>>>
>>
>>Being angry can be a tremendous resource to do the things you need to do.
>
>
> Sure, and a whole pile of other shit he don't need to do...
>
>
> Good luck with it.
>
> 25 to life...

Stuart,

I don't think people normally come up with the idea that anger can
_only_ be used for destructive purposes until after the Step groups.
However, what a wonderful, productive suggestion you have.

Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com

Ken Ragge <ken@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:QPKdnTzeFP96Mi3fRVn-hQ@comcast.com...
> stuart wrote:
>
> > "The Glass Prison" <glassprison51@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:1118856383.594986.47950@f14g2000cwb.googlegro ups.com...
> >
> >>I may take you up on that Ken. I briefly looked at "morerevealed" and
> >>perhaps I may tell my stories. They involve my life nearly taken twice
> >>at both Betty Ford and Hazelden after being drug-free for over two
> >>weeks each time. These things shouldn't happen at what they call "a
> >>safe place". It makes me shudder and cry when I think about it. I still
> >>have my written diaries and witnesses and it makes a good story. I'll
> >>try if I can (always wanted to), but sometimes it's better to put the
> >>past behind you.
> >>
> >>Of course, I am angry at myself and not because I made poor decisions
> >>that got me to treatment. What happened to me there was not my fault.
> >>It's like someone being admitted to a hospital for a drug overdose and
> >>the next day, they slip on a mopped wet floor and break their leg. Who
> >>is to blame for this? The fine upstanding hospital or the low-life
> >>junkie just for being there? I know who society and certainly the
> >>state, judge, jury, and insurance companies would choose.
> >>
> >>I still have ongoing issues and who better to let my anger out at than
> >>the individuals who nearly took my life twice, and then tried to "blow
> >>it off" with a fairy tale (the 12-step program). They were the people
> >>(and places) that I trusted in, wanted to love and believe in. But
> >>tragedy struck, twice, and I saw everything was disguised.
> >>
> >>Thanks for your understanding response.
> >>
> >>PS> I am a raised Roman Catholic, driven by fear and guilt. Need I say
> >>more?
> >
> >
> > Sure, sounds like you are still living with a painful past, ie still
unwell.
> > Best of luck in your future...
> >
> >
> What does "unwell" mean? Do you think there is something wrong with
> being angry when you've been seriously fucked over? Do you think Rosa
> Parks had it all wrong and should have just "turned it over" and sat at
> the back of the bus?
>
> Ken Ragge

Unwell means "not healthy" Ken

Well Ken, now you are gonna get my professional opinion on what you have
described as a mental health issue. No, there's absolutely nothing "wrong"
with being angry when you've been seriously fucked over. There is indeed
something terribly unhealthy with constantly wasting a lot of one's 'mental
capacity' on a past problem. Firstly, it hurts. Secondly, it seriously
detracts from one's ability to function in the present moment, denigrating
one's earning power, one's enjoyment of life, and one's usefulness to
oneself and one's friends and family. The pain of the past is being
constantly re-introduced to the present moment. Is that healthy? It's like
continuing to pick at a scab...
I don't know a single person who has not been seriously fucked over once or
twice. Healthy people deal with it as best as they can, people who are not
emotionally healthy can't or won't.
Sorry to tell you that we are not all equally healthy either physically or
mentally.
Reliance upon God is a source of strength for some, but not for others. No
one has the right to tell another what will work, or not work for their
mental well-being. Your position is predicated on all sorts of beliefs,
which you can neither prove nor disprove, just like my own beliefs.
Your long history of AA-bashing is either extremely unhealthy, or is
motivated by profit or some other pathological need IMO.
I would never spend the kind of energy you spend on such a controversial and
unimportant issue.


> http://www.morerevealed.com