pookie wrote:

> "Ken Ragge" <ken@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:hc6dnYLQV-auuDLfRVn-2w@comcast.com...
>
>>Dan McGown wrote:
>
>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>
>>>Ken,
>>> I continue to be surprised at the extreme nature of your views on AA
>>>and at the way that you insert them into each and every discussion.
>>
>>Dan,
>>
>>I'm surprised that you are suprised at someone expressing views critical
>>of AA on a thread that is on alt.recovery.from-12-steps.
>
>
> This thread is on other ngs besides alt.recovery.from-12-steps, and I agree
> with Dan, you are more than just 'critical' of AA. You sound like what you
> accuse them of being!
>
>
>>Please
>>
>>>note that Chris had already said that he wasn't going to AA and didn't
>>>intend to do so. There is no reason to offer him one of your aluminum
>>>foil hats to keep out the AA brain control microwaves.
>>> Even if he went to some meetings it would not be necessary. I go to
>>>one meeting a week. It's the one that I am trying to revive at the Pride
>>>Center. No one tries to draw me into other meetings. No one shuns me
>>>for disagreeing with them. If they did, it would be self defeating. I
>>>would choose to be shunned by someone who would choose to shun me.
>>
>>You are a grouper working his 12th Step very admirably, trying to
>>resuscitate a meeting. Why would they shun you? What do you think
>>groupers are _supposed_ to do?
>
>
>>If you were to announce with resolution that you don't believe in AA
>>anymore and were going to go to SMART or anywhere else, then there are
>>grounds for some serious shunning.
>>
>>
>>> What in the world happened to you that started you on this crusade?
>>
>>What makes you so sure something happened to me? Why is every criticism
>>of God's Program somehow turned around on the critic? Where does this
>>"Kill the messenger" philosophy come from? No need to answer.
>
>
> What "Kill the messenger" philosophy? To start acting toward your group as
> you are acting about AA, that would be turning it around on the critic. He
> simply asked a question that I'm sure a few people (including myself) are
> interested in the answer to, what happened at AA to start you on being so
> venomous about them?
>
>
>>Since you are so not afraid of being shunned by the Groupers, why not
>>let's discuss coercion into the Step group.
>>
>>The groups are a program of attraction, not promotion. Since this is so,
>>and AA is beyond criticism, can you explain this page from the offical AA
>>website?
>>
>>http://www.aa.org/default/en_pdfs/mg...pwithcourt.pdf
>
>
> Nowhere has anyone said that AA is beyond criticism. IMO it by itself is not
> a perfect plan for recovery, there aren't any of those. A lot of people who
> attend AA end up using again.

Pookie,

Well, according to Harvare psychiatrist, former AA board-member and
Al-Anon member George Vaillant's own research, yes AA is not perfect.
As a matter of fact, when reporting on his own research, he found the
results "abysmal" and the death rate "appalling." Of course, in his
"impartial, scientific" book on alcoholism (he never mentioned his
Step-group membership) he goes on to recommend everyone be sent to AA.

More than a lot of people end up using again. Almost _all_ end up using
again. Yes, around 3% or so is not _all_.

> And what is there to explain about the page?
> AA attempts to 'attract' people by showing them what they have to offer.

AA attempts to 'attract' people by getting the courts to make them go.
That is not attraction, that is coercion and the page is proof AA's
collusion in forcing such coercion.

AA got the coerion started. AA works to expand and keep the coercion
going. AA laments there is nothing they can do. Program of attaction
is just a slogan good groupers chant.

> They do not 'promote' themselves like some other facility might do,
> advertising on billboards or telephone poles, or putting commericials on the
> radio and tv.

Actually, some intergroups do actually use radio and TV advertising.
But then I guess there is no reason to believe an AA intergroup is AA.
Nothing else made up of and done by AA members seems to have anything to
do with AA.

> Because they have no control over what other programs require
> of people (like someone on probation being forced to attend meetings) does
> not mean they support that idea. What are they supposed to do, tell the
> state gov or whoever "oh no, that person can't come in, you can't make
> people on probation come here"?

They could start by stopping going to the courts to get people coerced
into their "program of attraction."

> AA refuses no one who comes in, regardless
> of why they're there.
>

Actually, that is not quite true. What do you think a closed meeting is?

Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com


> Pookie
>
> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
> The only true wisdom is in knowing that you
> know nothing.
>
> Socrates
> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
>
>

Chris,

I have so much anger inside me regarding the 12-step program and
treatment centers, but I can't reply to your post at the moment. I will
post it in a few days under a new topic. Please watch for it.

I wish I had a friend like you to talk to about this. Judging from your
story, we have a lot in common. But do want is best for yourself and
don't let a fear-provoking group make you surrender to them.

You can't surrender to a chemical, only people and their beliefs.
Remember that.

Thank you for your honesty,
Phil

TO KEN RAGGE....

Your opinion is intelligent, compassionate, logical, and understanding
and I agree totally in what you say.

We never hear from the overwhelming silent majority that abstain or
moderate their drug/alcohol use. They have no reason to "tell the world
about it". The 12-step program is based on one concept, and that is
FEAR. Members continue to attend the meetings like cattle not because
they're having a good time or making relationships. They continue, and
some for over 20-30-40 years, because they are programmed to believe
that if they DON'T GO, they will find themselves in back in the gutter,
drinking and drugging.

I have a problem with this topic and I could spend all night writing
about it. But I won't and the anger it causes isn't worth it.

Phil

OK! That fucking does it! Enough of this shit!

If you are a member and believer of any 12-step program, YOU ARE NOT or
WILL NEVER BE MY FRIEND. I dislike 12-step groupers and it's taken me
nearly ten years to figure it out. You are nothing but a FEAR-BASED
program and I say BULLSHIT to any claims to the millions of lives your
program has saved. Isn't it anonymous? And if so, who's doing the
secret accounting? Where are the time cards? How does everyone knows
who goes and who doesn't? Oh, that's right I forgot....12-step groupers
have the biggest fucking mouths going and "spill the beans" to anyone.

C'MON NOW, let's fight it out....this is not a meeting and you can't
throw me out!

And don't worry, this addict (aka ME) will NOT SURRENDER TO YOU OR YOUR
FUCKING PROGRAM!

PS> Wow what a rant! Now this "works if you work it" !!

PPS> and FUCK RAY CORK too! (if you know who he was, groupers)

"The Glass Prison" <glassprison51@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1118813333.837757.38360@o13g2000cwo.googlegro ups.com...
> OK! That fucking does it! Enough of this shit!
>
> If you are a member and believer of any 12-step program, YOU ARE NOT or
> WILL NEVER BE MY FRIEND. I dislike 12-step groupers and it's taken me

I can't begin to tell you how devastated we all are by your rejection.
How will we ever go on? Seriously, instead of just screaming and calling
names, why don't you try to get control of the anger so that you can
rationally explain specifically what it is that has made you so angry.
If you really want to make your point effectively, yelling won't
convince anyone while a reasoned explanation might pursuade someone to agree
with you.

dan mcgown wrote:
> "The Glass Prison" <glassprison51@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1118813333.837757.38360@o13g2000cwo.googlegro ups.com...
>
>>OK! That fucking does it! Enough of this shit!
>>
>>If you are a member and believer of any 12-step program, YOU ARE NOT or
>>WILL NEVER BE MY FRIEND. I dislike 12-step groupers and it's taken me
>
>
> I can't begin to tell you how devastated we all are by your rejection.
> How will we ever go on? Seriously, instead of just screaming and calling
> names, why don't you try to get control of the anger so that you can
> rationally explain specifically what it is that has made you so angry.
> If you really want to make your point effectively, yelling won't
> convince anyone while a reasoned explanation might pursuade someone to agree
> with you.
>
>

Dan,

I don't know what in particular he is angry about but I've seen that
anger directed at Steppers before and I've seen their responses.

Of course, no matter what people in The Program do, it is a persons' own
fault they are angry. They need to turn it over to God, to forgive, to
work a Step, etc.

I know a woman who was gang raped and her spiritual advisors (folks with
Time) tried to make her make amends to the rapists.

I've never seen group members own up to anything in the groups. Doesn't
matter, rape, child-molesting, gossiping a Fifth Step all over town,
old-timers trying to get newcomers to put out in exchange for drugs.
I've seen it all. Or at least sometimes I think so until I see more.

Good thing he is not attending group meetings and buying all the
spirtual crap. You guys would take action, I'm sure, that would push
him off the deep end. Then you can sit around, "Tut, tut. Some must die
so others can live."

Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com

P.S. Glass Prison, you are more than welcome to post your story in the
stories section at morerevealed.com. It is good to hear people speak
out and not be cowed and coerced into "making amends" for what was done
to them.

Hi Glass Prison - I do not know what your problem is but I wish for you
Serenity, Peace, Health and Sobriety.
Mias

"The Glass Prison" <glassprison51@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1118813333.837757.38360@o13g2000cwo.googlegro ups.com...
> OK! That fucking does it! Enough of this shit!
>
> If you are a member and believer of any 12-step program, YOU ARE NOT or
> WILL NEVER BE MY FRIEND. I dislike 12-step groupers and it's taken me
> nearly ten years to figure it out. You are nothing but a FEAR-BASED
> program and I say BULLSHIT to any claims to the millions of lives your
> program has saved. Isn't it anonymous? And if so, who's doing the
> secret accounting? Where are the time cards? How does everyone knows
> who goes and who doesn't? Oh, that's right I forgot....12-step groupers
> have the biggest fucking mouths going and "spill the beans" to anyone.
>
> C'MON NOW, let's fight it out....this is not a meeting and you can't
> throw me out!
>
> And don't worry, this addict (aka ME) will NOT SURRENDER TO YOU OR YOUR
> FUCKING PROGRAM!
>
> PS> Wow what a rant! Now this "works if you work it" !!
>
> PPS> and FUCK RAY CORK too! (if you know who he was, groupers)
>

The Glass Prison wrote:

> I have so much anger inside me
> Phil

Have you tried Anger Management, Phil?
Appears to me that you are angry over people that you have absolutely no
control over. The way *YOU* choose to react to them is what is important. In
your post you really appear to be in dire distress. That isn't healthy for
*YOU*. You can control how you react and that is all you can do.

Gail

I know that I can not pursuade any member of a group to agree with me
on a subject that threatens to destroy part of that group's belief. I
have anger and have found the perfect forum where I scream, and yell,
and call names knowing that even if I am calm and rational, I will
never get any grouper to agree. So why bother to make an effective
point? No one knows who I am anyway and I won't get a standing ovation.

No grouper, especially religious and 12-steppers, will ever agree with
anyone's beliefs that are different from outside the group.

And quite frankly, I don't think you can challenge that last statement.
After all, isn't all this based on belief and not fact?

The Glass Prison <glassprison51@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1118854166.979833.243990@z14g2000cwz.googlegr oups.com...
> I know that I can not pursuade any member of a group to agree with me
> on a subject that threatens to destroy part of that group's belief. I
> have anger and have found the perfect forum where I scream, and yell,
> and call names knowing that even if I am calm and rational, I will
> never get any grouper to agree. So why bother to make an effective
> point? No one knows who I am anyway and I won't get a standing ovation.
>
> No grouper, especially religious and 12-steppers, will ever agree with
> anyone's beliefs that are different from outside the group.
>
> And quite frankly, I don't think you can challenge that last statement.
> After all, isn't all this based on belief and not fact?

I think you have a very deeply prejudiced and narrow viewpoint if you feel
that "groupers believe" this, that or anything else.