On 9 Jul 2003 11:47:35 -0700, agent_orange@linuxmail.org
(Agent_Orange) wrote:

>Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<ab454adb10ce65e40d2d93e2227a6aee@free.terane ws.com>...
>> On Thu, 19 Jun 2003 14:17:40 -0400, Bill <sorrynospam@spamless.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >So are 12 step groups CULTS or not?
>>
>> Who cares?
>
>Who cares? That's the standard stereotypical alcoholic
>minimization and denial.
>"Who care if I drink? Doesn't everybody?"

I'm the only person who really cares if I drink. So, with that
notion....

>"Who cares if I push cult religion? Doesn't everybody?"

Who cares?

>> Some groups may fall under certain definitions of a cult. Each group
>> is autonomous, free to do pretty much what they like. Some seem to
>> have more religious nutters than others. But who really draws the
>> line between "self-help support" and "cult"?
>>
>> When the choice is between dying an alcoholic death and working the AA
>> program, what's your choice?
>
>That's the standard propaganda trick of the "Either/Or" technique.
>Only present the audience with two extreme opposites as choices.

I said "WHEN the choice is....". If you have another choice, that's
fine.

But if you're alcoholic, the time may come (if it's not already here)
when those are the only choices. If you're not, or you found another
way, do what works. If you're not alcoholic, why the hell would you
want to work the AA program?

--
Blue Moon

On 19 Jul 2003 17:35:42 -0700, agent_orange@linuxmail.org
(Agent_Orange) wrote:

>Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<40d000f11bd243fa6f52914dde7ea10e@free.terane ws.com>...
>> On 9 Jul 2003 11:47:35 -0700, agent_orange@linuxmail.org
>> (Agent_Orange) wrote:
>>
>> >Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<ab454adb10ce65e40d2d93e2227a6aee@free.terane ws.com>...
>> I said "WHEN the choice is....". If you have another choice, that's
>> fine.
>>
>> But if you're alcoholic, the time may come (if it's not already here)
>> when those are the only choices. If you're not, or you found another
>> way, do what works. If you're not alcoholic, why the hell would you
>> want to work the AA program?
>
>Excuse me, but when does the time come that the only choices
>available to a sick alcoholic are an ineffective cult religion,
>or dying of alcoholism?
>
>By what stretch of the imagination can you envision such
>a scenario?

I don't recall making any mention of adopting a cult religion. I
wouldn't even suggest "join AA" solely as a solution to alcoholism. I
would suggest "go to AA and work the program". The ineffectiveness is
directly proportional to the lack of willingness most have of actually
taking that suggestion.

--
Blue Moon

Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<1460efb62c30566e951915950d13f6a6@free.terane ws.com>...

> >Excuse me, but when does the time come that the only choices
> >available to a sick alcoholic are an ineffective cult religion,
> >or dying of alcoholism?
> >
> >By what stretch of the imagination can you envision such
> >a scenario?
>
> I don't recall making any mention of adopting a cult religion. I
> wouldn't even suggest "join AA" solely as a solution to alcoholism. I
> would suggest "go to AA and work the program". The ineffectiveness is
> directly proportional to the lack of willingness most have of actually
> taking that suggestion.

"The Program" as you call it, the 12-step program,
is a program of indoctrination into a cult religion,
not a quit-drinking program. Frank Buchman created
those *practices* (which he mis-labeled as
"spiritual principles") in order to grow his religious
cult, not to stop people from quitting drinking.
Bill Wilson simply copied the Oxford Group practices
to get the 12 steps.
That's where the "joining of a cult religion"
comes in.
See:
http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-religiousroots.html

* Agent Orange *
* agent_orange@linuxmail.org *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://aorange1.tripod.com/ *
* Heisenberg said, "I'm not really sure if *
* that even was Shrödinger's cat. I think *
* he might have used somebody else's cat..." *