There was an interesting study published not long ago in Science
(one of the three most prestigious journals in publishing biomedical
research):

Science, 303(5661): 1162-7, 2004. Placebo-Induced Changes in
fMRI in the Anticipation and Experience of Pain. (Full reference
with abstract in the end of this message).

Using brain imaging, they studied "placebo analgesia", the
phenomenon in which "the mere belief that one is receiving an
effective analgesic treatment can reduce pain". The gist of it
is something like this:
They unequivocally _saw_ placebo effect - the higher was the
anticipation of pain relief (brain activity in "thinking" areas)
the more pronounced was the actual pain relief (decreased
brain activity in regions responding to pain). Of course, nobody
yet knows what and how is happening on molecular level...

Why am I posting this? First, I think it's an incredibly
interesting mind-body interaction problem (I recalled about
it reading a post by GaryE on consciousness and such).
We have no idea what works and how yet our mental activity
somehow manages to affect out physical parts in the "right"
way.

Second, here a nice illustration of this age old "AA
works [but you have to believe]" thingie. The thing that I
think needs to be remembered is that, yes, of course there
is a placebo effect but in the overwhelming number of cases
the real medical intervention (pharmaceutical in particular)
works _considerably_ better. Which means that sticking
your head in the sand with the "AA needs no improvement"
is just silly. Early or later, there will be something that's
INcREDIBLY efficient (like Zyban for smoking) and then AA's
teachings will become outright reactionary and dangerous.

Finally, I think there is a clear connection here to the
Pavlovian conditioning I kept mentioning here. Either the
two have share identical underlying mechanism or on causes
another. But I haven't finished thinking it all through yet.
Maybe later, when I am back from vacation, which starts
tomorrow.

best of luck to everyone,

HP-G


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Science, 303(5661): 1162-7, 2004. Placebo-Induced Changes in fMRI in the
Anticipation and Experience of Pain.

Tor D. Wager,1* James K. Rilling,2 Edward E. Smith,1 Alex Sokolik,3 Kenneth L.
Casey,3 Richard J. Davidson,4 Stephen M. Kosslyn,5 Robert M. Rose,6 Jonathan D.
Cohen2,7

The experience of pain arises from both physiological and psychological factors,
including one's beliefs and expectations. Thus, placebo treatments that have no
intrinsic pharmacological effects may produce analgesia by altering
expectations. However, controversy exists regarding whether placebos alter
sensory pain transmission, pain affect, or simply produce compliance with the
suggestions of investigators. In two functional magnetic resonance imaging
(fMRI) experiments, we found that placebo analgesia was related to decreased
brain activity in pain-sensitive brain regions, including the thalamus, insula,
and anterior cingulate cortex, and was associated with increased activity during
anticipation of pain in the prefrontal cortex, providing evidence that placebos
alter the experience of pain.

1 Department of Psychology, University of Michigan, 525 East University, Ann
Arbor, MI 48109–1109, USA.
2 Center for the Study of Brain, Mind and Behavior, Princeton University,
Princeton, NJ 08544, USA.
3 Department of Neurology, Veterans Affairs Medical Center, University of
Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI 48109, USA.
4 Department of Psychology, University of Wisconsin, Madison, WI 53706, USA.
5 Department of Psychology, Harvard University, Cambridge, MA 02138, USA.
6 Mind Brain Body and Health Initiative, University of Texas Medical Branch,
Galveston, TX 77555, USA.
7 Department of Psychology, Princeton University, Princeton, NJ 08544, USA.

Dear Gawd
Believe me it was not a placebo effect that I experienced waking up one
morning and realising I have done 15 years without booze. If it was, God
bless Placebo's! If you have been where I have been with booze, you would
not care how it works, you would take it. There is a lot of things we use
without knowing how it works, whether we want to admit or accept it or not.
Grace, forgiveness, prayer and Viagra being but a few examples.
Kind regards
Mias
"H.P. Gawd" <hpgawd@non-anonymous.org> wrote in message
news:maitg01jtlk9i5cq0f43608jg04uh9jikv@4ax.com...
> There was an interesting study published not long ago in Science
> (one of the three most prestigious journals in publishing biomedical
> research):
>
> Science, 303(5661): 1162-7, 2004. Placebo-Induced Changes in
> fMRI in the Anticipation and Experience of Pain. (Full reference
> with abstract in the end of this message).
>
> Using brain imaging, they studied "placebo analgesia", the
> phenomenon in which "the mere belief that one is receiving an
> effective analgesic treatment can reduce pain". The gist of it
> is something like this:
> They unequivocally _saw_ placebo effect - the higher was the
> anticipation of pain relief (brain activity in "thinking" areas)
> the more pronounced was the actual pain relief (decreased
> brain activity in regions responding to pain). Of course, nobody
> yet knows what and how is happening on molecular level...
>
> Why am I posting this? First, I think it's an incredibly
> interesting mind-body interaction problem (I recalled about
> it reading a post by GaryE on consciousness and such).
> We have no idea what works and how yet our mental activity
> somehow manages to affect out physical parts in the "right"
> way.
>
> Second, here a nice illustration of this age old "AA
> works [but you have to believe]" thingie. The thing that I
> think needs to be remembered is that, yes, of course there
> is a placebo effect but in the overwhelming number of cases
> the real medical intervention (pharmaceutical in particular)
> works _considerably_ better. Which means that sticking
> your head in the sand with the "AA needs no improvement"
> is just silly. Early or later, there will be something that's
> INcREDIBLY efficient (like Zyban for smoking) and then AA's
> teachings will become outright reactionary and dangerous.
>
> Finally, I think there is a clear connection here to the
> Pavlovian conditioning I kept mentioning here. Either the
> two have share identical underlying mechanism or on causes
> another. But I haven't finished thinking it all through yet.
> Maybe later, when I am back from vacation, which starts
> tomorrow.
>
> best of luck to everyone,
>
> HP-G
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Science, 303(5661): 1162-7, 2004. Placebo-Induced Changes in fMRI in the
> Anticipation and Experience of Pain.
>
> Tor D. Wager,1* James K. Rilling,2 Edward E. Smith,1 Alex Sokolik,3
Kenneth L.
> Casey,3 Richard J. Davidson,4 Stephen M. Kosslyn,5 Robert M. Rose,6
Jonathan D.
> Cohen2,7
>
> The experience of pain arises from both physiological and psychological
factors,
> including one's beliefs and expectations. Thus, placebo treatments that
have no
> intrinsic pharmacological effects may produce analgesia by altering
> expectations. However, controversy exists regarding whether placebos alter
> sensory pain transmission, pain affect, or simply produce compliance with
the
> suggestions of investigators. In two functional magnetic resonance imaging
> (fMRI) experiments, we found that placebo analgesia was related to
decreased
> brain activity in pain-sensitive brain regions, including the thalamus,
insula,
> and anterior cingulate cortex, and was associated with increased activity
during
> anticipation of pain in the prefrontal cortex, providing evidence that
placebos
> alter the experience of pain.
>
> 1 Department of Psychology, University of Michigan, 525 East University,
Ann
> Arbor, MI 48109-1109, USA.
> 2 Center for the Study of Brain, Mind and Behavior, Princeton University,
> Princeton, NJ 08544, USA.
> 3 Department of Neurology, Veterans Affairs Medical Center, University of
> Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI 48109, USA.
> 4 Department of Psychology, University of Wisconsin, Madison, WI 53706,
USA.
> 5 Department of Psychology, Harvard University, Cambridge, MA 02138, USA.
> 6 Mind Brain Body and Health Initiative, University of Texas Medical
Branch,
> Galveston, TX 77555, USA.
> 7 Department of Psychology, Princeton University, Princeton, NJ 08544,
USA.
>

On Tue, 3 Aug 2004 05:24:42 +0200, "Mias" <emiasno@spamnetactivetome.co.za>
wrote:

>Dear Gawd
>Believe me it was not a placebo effect that I experienced waking up one
>morning and realising I have done 15 years without booze. If it was, God
>bless Placebo's! If you have been where I have been with booze, you would
>not care how it works, you would take it. There is a lot of things we use
>without knowing how it works, whether we want to admit or accept it or not.
>Grace, forgiveness, prayer and Viagra being but a few examples.

Except Viagra. We know very well how it works. It is a specific
inhibitor of Type V cGMP phopshodiesterase (PDE). It's actually
a very interesting subject and a story behind it but I don't
have time.

"Prayer" is probably some mental disfunction that will be
explained soon ;-) The rest I agree.

HP-G


>Mias
>"H.P. Gawd" <hpgawd@non-anonymous.org> wrote in message
>news:maitg01jtlk9i5cq0f43608jg04uh9jikv@4ax.com.. .
>> There was an interesting study published not long ago in Science
>> (one of the three most prestigious journals in publishing biomedical
>> research):
>>
>> Science, 303(5661): 1162-7, 2004. Placebo-Induced Changes in
>> fMRI in the Anticipation and Experience of Pain. (Full reference
>> with abstract in the end of this message).
>>
>> Using brain imaging, they studied "placebo analgesia", the
>> phenomenon in which "the mere belief that one is receiving an
>> effective analgesic treatment can reduce pain". The gist of it
>> is something like this:
>> They unequivocally _saw_ placebo effect - the higher was the
>> anticipation of pain relief (brain activity in "thinking" areas)
>> the more pronounced was the actual pain relief (decreased
>> brain activity in regions responding to pain). Of course, nobody
>> yet knows what and how is happening on molecular level...
>>
>> Why am I posting this? First, I think it's an incredibly
>> interesting mind-body interaction problem (I recalled about
>> it reading a post by GaryE on consciousness and such).
>> We have no idea what works and how yet our mental activity
>> somehow manages to affect out physical parts in the "right"
>> way.
>>
>> Second, here a nice illustration of this age old "AA
>> works [but you have to believe]" thingie. The thing that I
>> think needs to be remembered is that, yes, of course there
>> is a placebo effect but in the overwhelming number of cases
>> the real medical intervention (pharmaceutical in particular)
>> works _considerably_ better. Which means that sticking
>> your head in the sand with the "AA needs no improvement"
>> is just silly. Early or later, there will be something that's
>> INcREDIBLY efficient (like Zyban for smoking) and then AA's
>> teachings will become outright reactionary and dangerous.
>>
>> Finally, I think there is a clear connection here to the
>> Pavlovian conditioning I kept mentioning here. Either the
>> two have share identical underlying mechanism or on causes
>> another. But I haven't finished thinking it all through yet.
>> Maybe later, when I am back from vacation, which starts
>> tomorrow.
>>
>> best of luck to everyone,
>>
>> HP-G
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Science, 303(5661): 1162-7, 2004. Placebo-Induced Changes in fMRI in the
>> Anticipation and Experience of Pain.
>>
>> Tor D. Wager,1* James K. Rilling,2 Edward E. Smith,1 Alex Sokolik,3
>Kenneth L.
>> Casey,3 Richard J. Davidson,4 Stephen M. Kosslyn,5 Robert M. Rose,6
>Jonathan D.
>> Cohen2,7
>>
>> The experience of pain arises from both physiological and psychological
>factors,
>> including one's beliefs and expectations. Thus, placebo treatments that
>have no
>> intrinsic pharmacological effects may produce analgesia by altering
>> expectations. However, controversy exists regarding whether placebos alter
>> sensory pain transmission, pain affect, or simply produce compliance with
>the
>> suggestions of investigators. In two functional magnetic resonance imaging
>> (fMRI) experiments, we found that placebo analgesia was related to
>decreased
>> brain activity in pain-sensitive brain regions, including the thalamus,
>insula,
>> and anterior cingulate cortex, and was associated with increased activity
>during
>> anticipation of pain in the prefrontal cortex, providing evidence that
>placebos
>> alter the experience of pain.
>>
>> 1 Department of Psychology, University of Michigan, 525 East University,
>Ann
>> Arbor, MI 48109-1109, USA.
>> 2 Center for the Study of Brain, Mind and Behavior, Princeton University,
>> Princeton, NJ 08544, USA.
>> 3 Department of Neurology, Veterans Affairs Medical Center, University of
>> Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI 48109, USA.
>> 4 Department of Psychology, University of Wisconsin, Madison, WI 53706,
>USA.
>> 5 Department of Psychology, Harvard University, Cambridge, MA 02138, USA.
>> 6 Mind Brain Body and Health Initiative, University of Texas Medical
>Branch,
>> Galveston, TX 77555, USA.
>> 7 Department of Psychology, Princeton University, Princeton, NJ 08544,
>USA.
>>
>

"H.P. Gawd" wrote:

> "Prayer" is probably some mental disfunction that will be
> explained soon ;-) The rest I agree.

"Imagination is the native activity of the soul."
James Hillman

"Follow your bliss."
Joseph Campbell

"It ends in beauty."
Native American Prayer

http://ny.essortment.com/whatisprayer_reki.htm

"H.P. Gawd" <hpgawd@non-anonymous.org> wrote in message
news:jd2ug0dkk250ml5q6cmbvj9bkpcti39cme@4ax.com...
> Except Viagra. We know very well how it works. It is a specific
> inhibitor of Type V cGMP phopshodiesterase (PDE). It's actually
> a very interesting subject and a story behind it but I don't
> have time.
>
> "Prayer" is probably some mental disfunction that will be
> explained soon ;-) The rest I agree.
>
Exactly my point. YOU understand how Viagra works and I am just an innocent
victim to it. It is the same as in that I understand how sobriety works and
you again, just dream of becoming an innocent victim to it.
P.S. I am starting to like your dry sense of humour and that is a BIG
mistake...
Kind regards
Mias

On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 04:01:45 GMT, "F.H." <disconnectu@earthlink.net> wrote:

>"H.P. Gawd" wrote:
>
>> "Prayer" is probably some mental disfunction that will be
>> explained soon ;-) The rest I agree.
>
>"Imagination is the native activity of the soul."
>James Hillman
>
>"Follow your bliss."
>Joseph Campbell

I am trying hard to find the word prayer here in your quotes.
Is this a hidden code of some sort? Must we take everything
ever said literally???

>"It ends in beauty."
>Native American Prayer
>
>http://ny.essortment.com/whatisprayer_reki.htm

".. inner world of the spirit where God dwells"
and other stuff like this? No thanks. I'd rather
go to the Disney's Haunted House or something.
Probably more real...

HP-G

"H.P. Gawd" <hpgawd@non-anonymous.org> wrote in message
news:0s3ug0d3off85rfpnc1p4dugojb7kpdr53@4ax.com...

> ".. inner world of the spirit where God dwells"
> and other stuff like this? No thanks. I'd rather
> go to the Disney's Haunted House or something.
> Probably more real...
>
Relative to your inner world, it certainly appears pertinent, and
probably is more real.

Bob

In article <0s3ug0d3off85rfpnc1p4dugojb7kpdr53@4ax.com>, hpgawd@non-
anonymous.org says...
> On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 04:01:45 GMT, "F.H." <disconnectu@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >"H.P. Gawd" wrote:
> >
> >> "Prayer" is probably some mental disfunction that will be
> >> explained soon ;-) The rest I agree.
> >
> >"Imagination is the native activity of the soul."
> >James Hillman
> >
> >"Follow your bliss."
> >Joseph Campbell
>
> I am trying hard to find the word prayer here in your quotes.
> Is this a hidden code of some sort? Must we take everything
> ever said literally???
>
> >"It ends in beauty."
> >Native American Prayer
> >
> >http://ny.essortment.com/whatisprayer_reki.htm
>
> ".. inner world of the spirit where God dwells"
> and other stuff like this? No thanks. I'd rather
> go to the Disney's Haunted House or something.
> Probably more real...
>
Definitely better Special Effects. Gotta love
this guy. Guess I'll be back to Crow in another
ten days.

--
Davy

"H.P. Gawd" wrote:

> ".. inner world of the spirit where God dwells"
> and other stuff like this? No thanks. I'd rather
> go to the Disney's Haunted House or something.
> Probably more real...

Reality without stupidity. Lofty.

On Tue, 3 Aug 2004 06:07:26 +0200, Mias <emiasno@spamnetactivetome.co.za> wrote:

> YOU understand how Viagra works and I am just an innocent victim to
> it.

A victim of Viagra?! I hate to imagine!

--
AB5DB9CC