rock,
i guess i don't get it..................do you think your an
alcoholic or not?

--
rosie
http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/052304A.shtml








"rockhound" <user@null.org> wrote in message
news:3f3defc811f7e8a8a616e2e335e00e0b@news.teranew s.com...
: On Mon, 24 May 2004 02:48:01 GMT, Ron <can@the.spam> wrote:
:
: >On Mon, 24 May 2004 08:13:22 +1000, Robert McGregor
: ><robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
: >
: >> After *countless* attempts at stopping "I cannot help myself,
I'm an
: >> alcoholic" are sentiments often expressed by hopeless drinkers.
: >
: >I've felt that way about quitting smoking. Different animal, to
be
: >sure.
: >
: >> After countless foiled attempts to stop did lead to
hopelessness,
: >> those are sentiments I once expressed myself.
: >
: >That's a big difference between us. I've only quit once. (Well,
I've
: >quit dozens of times, the day after, for a short while. Was dead
: >serious too, the way being covered in vomit will do to you. But
shortly
: >felt better, and forgot about it.) Until several months ago, I
was
: >*not* an alcoholic. Not in *my* mind, anyway. Not even close.
Then I
: >finally scared the shit out of myself.
: >
: >I have managed to only have a drink or two at a time before.
Certain
: >family or work functions. But it drives me absolutely nuts. I
like
: >being drunk. Drunk to the point where it kills me the next day,
but
: >then I do it all over again. Do I just abuse alcohol, or am I a
'real'
: >alcoholic? Best I can say about that right now is that depending
on
: >where you sit w/ respect to a bunch of orthogonal factors - e.g.
genetic
: >disposition, stress, diet, amount consumed over time, access,
social
: >circumstances, etc. - you will be more or less drawn to drink. A
: >spectrum of drunken behaviour, with 'alcoholic' just being a
convenient
: >term to describe one end of the spectrum, rather than you are or
aren't,
: >yes or no, black and white. Does the *potential* exist in
everybody? I
: >have no idea. I can give myself a pavlovian craving for alcohol
just by
: >thinking about it for a little while. Happens sometimes when I
spend
: >too much time on this NG, actually.
: >
: >I often think it may be counterproductive to label people 'in' or
'out'
: >of the club, as (1) it's a continuum (2) denying people entrance
might
: >push them further along before they again attempt to disengage.
: >
: >> For years, I noticed advertisements to the effect that "If you
want to
: >> drink that's your business, if you want to stop drinking, it's
ours."
: >> I never bothered to follow them up, as I could see no point at
all in
: >> wanting to do the impossible, ie. stop drinking.
: >
: >You kept trying and failing. It seemed impossible. But then you
: >succeeded. You did the steps. What about people who do the
steps and
: >fail? They didn't 'really' do them? Or they have certain
'defects of
: >character'? (I love that one.) Or maybe you just knew down to
the
: >marrow of your bone that you had had enough, and pushed just a
little
: >harder, and happened to be willing to take certain steps along
the
: >way this time...
: >
: >>> The whole 'Nothing worked until I found God', said straight
from the
: >>> heart, is just another way of saying self-delusion is the cure
for
: >>> alcoholism.
: >
: >> What is God? Who claims a cure for alcoholism?
: >
: >I should have sharpened my crayon a bit. Didn't mean to include
: >everyone in the same sentence, of course.
: >
: >>> And of course "real" alcoholics will dispute this 'till the
day they
: >>> die. If a "real" alcoholic would put the lie to the whole
schtick,
: >>> well that just won't do!
: >
: >> Do you dispute there is anything "real" alcoholics have not
: >> disputed?
: >
: > Nope.
: >
: >> with apologies to Matt Dubey/Harold Karr, but:-
: >>
: >> http://tinyurl.com/2dzs6 Bob
: >
: >Hmm. Those are exactly the reasons I quit. I know it should be
for
: >'me', but quite frankly, that *is* 'me'. If I were all alone, I
: >wouldn't even be trying yet.
: >
: >I don't even know why I keep bickering about this crap. I should
just
: >do my thing and leave everyone else well enough alone. It will
work or
: >not. I will try again or not. Guess I like throwing shit out
from time
: >to time to get other people's opinions, good or bad.
: >
: >Ha! You'll love this! I spoke at a meeting. The chairperson
asked me
: >a couple weeks beforehand. I said that was silly, I wasn't even
really
: >doing AA stuff, but they didn't care. Probably made their life
easy
: >because they didn't have to find someone else. Did a short
drunkalogue,
: >said I didn't have any wisdom to impart. Kept it short. Felt
like
: >saying a few other things, for grins, but refrained.. Wonder
how many
: >other damn fools like me are telling half truths on the witness
stand?
: >
: >Maybe that's why I'm letting it hang out here. I don't like
misleading
: >people, which is what I felt like I did. Didn't lie, just didn't
tell
: >the whole truth.
:
: I got stuck in a meeting once, many moons ago, a Sunday morning
: breakfast after the night my pal set our hotel on fire with his
: cigarette. Damn firemen were so angry at us up on the roof. They
: thought we should have been out of the building like everyone else
: already, but well i figured it was just a dumb drill.
:
: I didn't have anything to share either, but there was a new guy in
the
: middle of the room that was asking about AA, and i thought people
were
: kind of ignoring him, so when they got around to me i just spoke
: mainly to him and told him what i'd heard about AA and how it got
: invented and all. He seemed real interested.
:
: But i felt pressed to talk about myself like everyone else was, so
but
: i let everybody know i felt dumb talking, because i didn't really
: think i was alcoholic, see, because i'd tried the controlled
drinking
: experiment and found it wanting, and i told them about that.
:
: I told them how I'd been real careful to get a mickey of JD and
make
: sure nobody knew, so all my AA friends wouldn't all get the wrong
: impression or something, and took my guitar down to the park that
day,
: and poured myself a shot, and then waited 5 or 10 mintues to see
if a
: phenomenon of craving developed, and how it didn't, and how i
hadn't
: wanted to be the scientist who didn't really try the experiment
all
: the way, in case it might prove his pet theory wrong, so i'd tried
: again, poured another shot. Waited 5 to 10. Still nothing. Then
i
: poured another and checked whether the phenomenon of craving had
: developed yet. Nopedy. Anyway, long story short, i had found
myself
: in short order wandering around downtown, drunk and belligerent
and
: carrying on with my hooker friend, and some fool cops, et al.
Soon i
: decided i'd best leave town altogether, because work season was
: starting up again. But since i knew now for sure i wasn't
alcoholic,
: it was bound to be a good time, wherever i went.
:
: I didn't go back to that meeting, or any, for a long time, because
: they were all laughing at me so hard.
:
: >
: >People are bizarre. I am clearly bored. Boring. Bah.
:

GOTCHA!

--
rosie
http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/052304A.shtml








"rockhound" <user@null.org> wrote in message
news:8fcaf9b89339ecdd328b601c2c63c6b3@news.teranew s.com...
: On Mon, 24 May 2004 15:06:09 GMT, "rosie"
: <readandpost@yahooORhotmail.com> wrote:
:
: >rock,
: >i guess i don't get it..................do you think your an
: >alcoholic or not?
:
: I didn't, rosie, for most of my life, but somewhere, and i'm not
sure
: where, i crossed the line they talked about.
:
: I have a full step one under my belt now.
:
: The rest of them are still up in the air.
:
: My father thinks i'm 'flighty'.

On Mon, 24 May 2004 12:34:08 GMT, rosie <readandpost@yahooORhotmail.com>
wrote:

> when you are ready:
> http://www.quitbuddies.org/BuddiesIndex1.html

Thanks. I quit about five years ago, though.

--
AB5DB9CC

: > when you are ready:
: > http://www.quitbuddies.org/BuddiesIndex1.html
:
: Thanks. I quit about five years ago, though.
:
: --
: AB5DB9CC

loops!
i must have misread your statement!


i found quitting smoking A LOT harder than quitting drinking!
this particular support group made all the difference!

want to see my meter?

Seven years, four months, three weeks, two days, 13 hours, 9 minutes
and 4 seconds. 135027 cigarettes not smoked, saving $30,380.70. Life
saved: 1 year, 14 weeks, 6 days, 20 hours, 15 minutes.

On Mon, 24 May 2004 21:24:55 +1000, Robert McGregor
<robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

> When I eventually stopped smoking, I found it much easier than
> stopping drinking. Must add though, experiencing victory over
> alcoholism may well have supplied me with some subtle but essential
> pre-requisites to stop smoking.

I did the reverse. I successfully quit smoking for a year once. Then
thought I could have one now and then. Learned a lesson there I'd
rather not re-learn w/ respect to quitting drinking.

My squirrely little mad scientist brain gets pretty upset sometimes when
it can't do experiments, though.

> That, according to the AA literature we discussed, designates that
> dividing line between alcohol abuse, and *real* alcoholism, to which
> you objected when you arrived here, apparantly due to a
> missunderstanding that being non alcoholic precluded you from AA
> membership.

I would actually like to find a non-AA group in my area, but no luck so
far. Thought it would be easy thing to do in the left-leaning environs
I inhabit, but so far, no go. AA or bust. Well, really too early to
declare defeat, some more searching is in order..

> Arguably, the critical factor defining you as an alcohol abuser was
> your ability to stop when you wanted to. Although as far as I know
> there is no universally accepted definition of an alcoholic, all the
> "real" alcoholics I know tried all sorts of tricks to *avoid* being
> absurdly drunk. "We alcoholics are men and women who have lost the
> ability to control our drinking" http://tinyurl.com/38qff On the other
> side of the line are alcohol abusers who *wanted* to get wasted.

I don't understand how losing the ability to control one's drinking
correlates with an *aversion* to drinking. I've certainly never been
adverse to drinking, at all (except when puking, hung over, etc.). What
is 'controlled drinking'? Not getting drunk. No? We lost the ability
to not get drunk.

I *do* think that implies there's a physiological aspect to this little
problem. It's more than just "I like to get drunk". I don't think
the definition of alcoholism should have any real correlation with the
external manefestation of drunkedness either. You're not an alcoholic
because you wrapped your car around a telephone pole, or whatever.

Maybe the best way to measure the physiological aspect of a person's
addiction is to consider their withdrawal response. From the stories
I've heard, my symptoms weren't too bad, but they weren't nothing
either. A 'high bottom' drunk, to be sure. Things could be worse, and
I'm not complaining that they weren't.

I guess I still believe there's a continuum of despair. Some people are
sicker than others. And I certainly think some people will need more
help than others.

But the steps... I just don't get it. Forget bickering about
semantics, the 'what' of them is clear enough, for all practical intents
and purposes. But the 'why' makes no sense to me - except w/ regards to
the notion that it's a religious program, disguised as recovery. That's
the only explanation of the steps that makes sense to me. What other
basis is there for their construction? Where did they come from,
besides someone's imagination? I mean no offense, but they resemble an
alchemist's incantations. Make a circle in the ground, poke a toad in
the eye, and take a bath in jello.

Alright, they're not *that* absurd. Accepting that you have a problem,
and facing up to all the idiotic crap you're responsible for and trying
to fix it might certainly give cause for reflection. But that's just
common sense know-how about taking care of yourself and your relation to
others. Maybe some people totally lose that ability, I dunno..

(Someone speaking at a meeting I attended spent a considerable amount of
time praising the usefulness of sharing all her past sexual deviancies
with a sponser while doing her step whatever. WTF does that have to do
with the price of bananas I had to wonder (besides maybe altering the
demand equation at the local corner store)?)

Why? Why why why? The infinite unanswerable question, I suppose.

>> I often think it may be counterproductive to label people 'in' or
>> 'out' of the club, as (1) it's a continuum (2) denying people
>> entrance might push them further along before they again attempt to
>> disengage.

> Non alcoholics, and even less than reasonably cognisant
> alcoholics, have been pushing that line in AA for decades. I
> must add to the detriment of many real alcoholics, of whom I
> know a few, to whom AA is no longer a haven.

I've encountered some pretty weeny drinkers in my short AA sojourn
already. I can't understand why they are there. A few people who quit
shortly after puberty or thereabouts, who apparently got stinking drunk
and hung over a few times, who have been going to AA for twenty some
years to share the good news. Victims of well-intentioned idiotic
interventions by daytime talk-show educated family/friends. Etc.

I can't identify with those people. I think it could be useful to come
up with some sort of convenient classification system, and put people at
similar levels together. Maybe. I don't know. I'm a classist bigotted
drunk about drunkedness myself. It *is* a pissing contest, of sorts,
for me anyway.

>> You kept trying and failing. It seemed impossible. But then you
>> succeeded. You did the steps. What about people who do the steps
>> and fail? They didn't 'really' do them? Or they have certain
>> 'defects of character'? (I love that one.) Or maybe you just knew
>> down to the marrow of your bone that you had had enough, and pushed
>> just a little harder, and happened to be willing to take certain
>> steps along the way this time...

> Whatever. Without the common identification of real alcoholism, there
> is no common premise for discussion of those opinions.

Oh, come on, that's a cop out...

> I'm stuck with being passionate about recovery from "real"
> alcoholism. If that's a *real* character defect, I'll leave it up to
> God to remove it.
>
> For the sake of your family if nothing else, if there is a chance you
> never need to comprehend first hand what real alcoholism is, I hope
> this dialogue has helped.

It has. Some not altogether disagreeable disagreements notwithstanding.
I will attempt to keep my squirrel in a cage, and will therefore
hopefully have no further first-hand evidence to support these
particular conjectures and confabulations, frustrating as that might be.

--
AB5DB9CC

"Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
news:jMysc.38707$zw.16769@attbi_s01...
> On Mon, 24 May 2004 21:24:55 +1000, Robert McGregor
> <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>

> > Whatever. Without the common identification of real
alcoholism, there
> > is no common premise for discussion of those opinions.
>
> Oh, come on, that's a cop out...
>

Whatever,

Bob.

On Tue, 25 May 2004 03:08:00 GMT, Ron <can@the.spam> wrote:

>But the steps... I just don't get it. Forget bickering about
>semantics, the 'what' of them is clear enough, for all practical intents
>and purposes. But the 'why' makes no sense to me - except w/ regards to
>the notion that it's a religious program, disguised as recovery. That's
>the only explanation of the steps that makes sense to me. What other
>basis is there for their construction? Where did they come from,
>besides someone's imagination? I mean no offense, but they resemble an
>alchemist's incantations. Make a circle in the ground, poke a toad in
>the eye, and take a bath in jello.

*yawn*

The intellectual approach is so very, very dry.
Why don't you go ask yourself more 'why'.

------------
Time to get the Led out.