On the 17th May, Rosie posted the following:

Daily Reflections

. . . . AND FORGIVE

Under very trying conditions I have had, again and again, to forgive others--also myself.
AS BILL SEE IT p. 268

Forgiveness of self and forgiveness of others are just two currents in the same river, both hindered
or shut off completely by the dam of resentment. Once that dam is lifted, both currents can flow.
The Steps of A.A. allow me to see how resentment has built up and subsequently blocked off this flow
in my life. The Steps provide a way by which my resentments may - by the grace of God as I
understand Him - be lifted. It is as a result of this solution that I can find the necessary grace
which enables me to forgive myself and others.

I am wondering whether Bill's idea that we should forgive others is meant to be interpreted as
forgiving others *no matter what they do to us*. If it is, then I don't think that I would be able
to do this. What I would prefer to do is to try to put things behind me and in so doing, get on
with the rest of my life.

If the question of forgiveness is or has been a major issue for you, I would love to hear from you.

JB

"catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in
news:be91v1$eph$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk:

> On the 17th May, Rosie posted the following:
>
> Daily Reflections
>
> . . . . AND FORGIVE
>
> Under very trying conditions I have had, again and again,
> to forgive others--also myself. AS BILL SEE IT p. 268

> Forgiveness of self and forgiveness of others are just two
> currents in the same river, both hindered or shut off
> completely by the dam of resentment. Once that dam is
> lifted, both currents can flow. The Steps of A.A. allow me
> to see how resentment has built up and subsequently blocked
> off this flow in my life. The Steps provide a way by which
> my resentments may - by the grace of God as I understand
> Him - be lifted. It is as a result of this solution that I
> can find the necessary grace which enables me to forgive
> myself and others.

> I am wondering whether Bill's idea that we should forgive
> others is meant to be interpreted as forgiving others *no
> matter what they do to us*. If it is, then I don't think
> that I would be able to do this. What I would prefer to
> do is to try to put things behind me and in so doing, get
> on with the rest of my life.

> If the question of forgiveness is or has been a major issue
> for you, I would love to hear from you.

> JB

Jesus, (I mean JB) you aren't gonna make this easy are you?
(agonizing sigh here) Yeah, I've struggled with it for years.

I usta untill very recently think that forgiveness wasn't to be
granted carte blanche. One had to ask for it. Express remorse
and ask to be forgiven. My rationale was that this is the way it
is in the Bible. The only time Jesus forgave without being asked
first, was when on the cross. Then he said: Father forgive them
for they know not what they do. <--See he gave his reason for
granting the forgiveness without having been asked. "for they
know not what they do." I reasoned, I'm not forgiving anyone
unless they at least say they are sorry. So there I sit not
allowed to take revenge, and harboring resentment. Stewing in my
own juices, as it were. Unable to understand the way out of the
conundrum. (Now what to do with all the pent up anger?)

The only way I found was when I realized that they genuinely had
not known what they had done to me. They had just hit my vehicle
and left. <--That is what caused my last impulsive drinking
bout. That left me in a rage that I had nothing to unleash it
on. At least not appropriatly. They were never gonna apologize,
and I was never gonna get over it. I was in a fix I couldn't see
a way out of. Then it dawned on me. Others never truly realize
what they have done to us. Not truly. So I forgive them for the
same reason Jesus did: For they genuinely know not what they do.
Not in reality, not really, not fully comprehending the affect
that their actions have had on us.
Some more Bible quotes now: Blessed are the merciful, for thay
shall obtain mercy. Mercy rejoices against judgement. With what
measure you judge, you shall also be judged. Well, I want to be
forgiven, and I'm sure I am not fully aware of the misery I have
caused others nor, I am sure, in all cases have I apologized.
So, I think it is necessary to forgive.

Still not drinking, BTW.

--
You know that some people are different.Now ain't that a crying
shame.Wouldn't it be a real drag, if we were all the same.Savoy
Brown

Yes, No Matter what they have done to us. And at this stage it is no small
surprise that you will not do this. It's important to know this is not
something you cannot do, but something you will not do. It is not something
you are unable to do, but more something you do not want to do. Too often,
we define ourselves by what has been done TO us, and there is quite
naturally great fear in letting go of those things -- for then, we fear we
may lose sight of who we are. We hold on to the most unhealthy parts of
humanity, because we have become comfortable with this. It is amazing the
things with which we can become comfortable.

Forgiveness is not something I decided to do. It was something I had to
learn to do. This is not a religious thing - it is a survival thing. We
are only as sick as our secrets, but we are most definitely just as sick as
our secrets. Part of our secrets are the things that hurt us which we are
unwilling to let go. We say we want to move forward, but still keep one
foot firmly planted in the past. This sounds like what you are saying. It
reminds of something I once heard, "If you have one foot in tomorrow and the
other in yesterday, all you can do is piss on today."

When I first started going to AA meetings I had issues with some things I
had blocked out. The memories only came back in sobriety, triggered by
other memories. I especially had trouble with those things done TO me which
I had no control over. So why did I have to forgive these people? For ME!
Over years and years I had been holding on to those things that had hurt me
and my unwillingness to let them go kept me from participating in the
healthier parts of any relationship.

Forgiveness still is not something that I just "decided" to do. Of course,
it probably starts with that, but most of the time it takes work and
education; sometimes it takes a lot of work. The first step in forgiveness
though, was not cleaning someone else's house, but cleaning my own. The
forgiveness Bill is talking about comes after we have cleaned our own house.
I had to learn to forgive myself first for all the shit I had done.

I hear folks all the time talk about they only hurt others because of what
was done to them. That is a load of shit. We all hurt others because by
nature we are selfish, self-centered asses. Once we figure that part out,
we seem to get better. Even the Martyrs among turn out to be just a selfish
and controlling as the violent drunk, usually even more so.

Back to the question at hand, Do you have to learn to forgive - no matter
what? Only if you want to be able to put it behind you and move forward.
Otherwise it's not behind you, it's just packed in that suitcase of shit
you're carrying around.

Bobby L




"catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:be91v1$eph$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...


> On the 17th May, Rosie posted the following:
>
> Daily Reflections
>
> . . . . AND FORGIVE
>
> Under very trying conditions I have had, again and again, to forgive
others--also myself.
> AS BILL SEE IT p. 268
>
> Forgiveness of self and forgiveness of others are just two currents in the
same river, both hindered
> or shut off completely by the dam of resentment. Once that dam is lifted,
both currents can flow.
> The Steps of A.A. allow me to see how resentment has built up and
subsequently blocked off this flow
> in my life. The Steps provide a way by which my resentments may - by the
grace of God as I
> understand Him - be lifted. It is as a result of this solution that I can
find the necessary grace
> which enables me to forgive myself and others.
>
> I am wondering whether Bill's idea that we should forgive others is meant
to be interpreted as
> forgiving others *no matter what they do to us*. If it is, then I don't
think that I would be able
> to do this. What I would prefer to do is to try to put things behind me
and in so doing, get on
> with the rest of my life.
>
> If the question of forgiveness is or has been a major issue for you, I
would love to hear from you.
>
> JB
>
>

JB,
in early sobriety, it became quite clear that i had some big problems with forgiving my ex-husbands ten years of abusive
behavior (both physical and emotional)

in order for me to "move on" i DID have to deal with the damage done, find a way to forgive, (NOT EXCUSE) his behavior,
correct MY behavior and make amends for my part in it.

i have worked with many people who suffered SEXUAL abuse, who felt they could not forgive, and my advise to most, is to
wait.................just wait...................don't force a thing.
there is NO RUSH, but there is alot of work to do, to bring them (the victim) some resolve and feeling of safety and
control.

--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

rash indeed is he who reckons on the morrow, or
haply on days beyond it; for tomorrow is not, until
today is past.
...............................sophocles (406 BC)



"catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message news:be91v1$eph$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> On the 17th May, Rosie posted the following:
>
> Daily Reflections
>
> . . . . AND FORGIVE
>
> Under very trying conditions I have had, again and again, to forgive others--also myself.
> AS BILL SEE IT p. 268
>
> Forgiveness of self and forgiveness of others are just two currents in the same river, both hindered
> or shut off completely by the dam of resentment. Once that dam is lifted, both currents can flow.
> The Steps of A.A. allow me to see how resentment has built up and subsequently blocked off this flow
> in my life. The Steps provide a way by which my resentments may - by the grace of God as I
> understand Him - be lifted. It is as a result of this solution that I can find the necessary grace
> which enables me to forgive myself and others.
>
> I am wondering whether Bill's idea that we should forgive others is meant to be interpreted as
> forgiving others *no matter what they do to us*. If it is, then I don't think that I would be able
> to do this. What I would prefer to do is to try to put things behind me and in so doing, get on
> with the rest of my life.
>
> If the question of forgiveness is or has been a major issue for you, I would love to hear from you.
>
> JB
>
>

"catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:be91v1$eph$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> On the 17th May, Rosie posted the following:
>
> Daily Reflections
>
> . . . . AND FORGIVE
>
> Under very trying conditions I have had, again and again, to forgive
others--also myself.
> AS BILL SEE IT p. 268
>
> Forgiveness of self and forgiveness of others are just two currents in the
same river, both hindered
> or shut off completely by the dam of resentment. Once that dam is lifted,
both currents can flow.
> The Steps of A.A. allow me to see how resentment has built up and
subsequently blocked off this flow
> in my life. The Steps provide a way by which my resentments may - by the
grace of God as I
> understand Him - be lifted. It is as a result of this solution that I can
find the necessary grace
> which enables me to forgive myself and others.
>
> I am wondering whether Bill's idea that we should forgive others is meant
to be interpreted as
> forgiving others *no matter what they do to us*. If it is, then I don't
think that I would be able
> to do this. What I would prefer to do is to try to put things behind me
and in so doing, get on
> with the rest of my life.
>
> If the question of forgiveness is or has been a major issue for you, I
would love to hear from you.

You bring up a lot of points JB, more than I think you realise. first of
all, I am going to step up and ask if you realize that you are powerless
over alcohol? and is your life unmanageable? I ask in the present tense as
the only thing that has change from a month ago, is that you are not
drinking. While that is great, it is not the end, but a beginning. Alcohol
works, otherwise we would not have drank. Unfortunately (or fortunately) it
has consequences. Since you are here and you are not drinkiing, I would
assume that at some point you decided that the consequnces were too much.
Fine: remember those consequences. You have come to realize, I hope that
you cannot safely drink, and that today you will do your best not to, by any
means neccesary.

When you say "I don't think I can do this..." that is fine. That means you
are willing to try but don't have the tools necessary to do this. You
didn't say, I never will, or can't. So you are doing great. Guess what? it
took me over a year to learn forgiveness. So at one month, you are exactly
where you need to be.

realizing that your goal is not to drink, and that resentments will cause
you to drink. we need to learn how to forgive to remain sober. the person
you need to forgive, needs forgiveness so that you may stay sober. It has
nothing to do with them. And at *no* point in this do we say to them "I
forgive you". unless you are actually God, and in that case you should
already know all this.

So we did step one, this crisis is unmanageable, and we don't want to drink.
Do you think it can be resolved? great, step two. Do you think a power
greater than yourself (even if it is only this group) can help? step three.
Four, what is your part in all this? I know you said a grave injustice was
done to you, but things are rarely so cut and dry. How does it affect you?
your safety, income, sex-life, security, *EGO*? I am willing to say that
Ego is what is affeected here, and that is the easiest one to let go of.
Now, the dilemma. You don't want to share what the specific incedent is,
well that's OK, I am going to give you a pass on this one, as long as you
find yourself a quiet place, and write out your feelings on all this, then
read it out loud. yes out loud, I want you to hear it. Now after reading
all that out loud, do you thinkk the accounting is complete? do you see your
side in it? is the whole incident clearer? good that was step six. Now,
out loud again " My creator, I am now willing that you have all of me, good
and bad. I pray that you now remove from me every single defect of character
which stands in the way of my usefulness to you and my fellows. Grant me
strength, as I go out from here, to do your bidding. Amen." that was
seven. Pay attention to the word usefullness.

I'll stop here, as i think you have enogh of an assignment for today. And
please do not think by any means that yo have now gone through steps one
through seven of AA. This is just how it works, and the way to apply it to
a special situation and practice these principals.


JB, people are fallible. I am fallible. I have done a lot of stuff, and have
been forgiven. I have been shown great mercy by people, and by God. I had
to learn to forgive others as I have been forgiven. Then and only then can I
truly leave it behind and move on.

In my drinking days, I stole a lot of things. One night, I thought it would
be a good idea to steal my neighbors TV. Guilt wracked me though, and in a
blackout, I confessed to a friend. My friend told my neighbors that he knew
who stole their TV, and that it would get returned. I returned the TV
anonymously, and they gave my friend a Bible, to give to me. They chose to
forgive me and move on, rather than trouble themselves with getting me
arrested, or getting even with me, even though I caused them a great deal of
anguish and harm. they were in the house at the time I broke in and stole
the TV. They didn't feel safe anymore. So I stole a great deal more than
just a TV, I stole their piece of mind. yet they still chose to forgive me.
And that is a lesson I will never forget, and I still have the bible.

So when my first sponsor broke my trust and cofessed he had a crush on me, I
was devistated, and i wanted to drink. I was mad at him, and i was mad at
AA. One day I actually heard the words of the Lord's prayer, "Forgive us
our tesspasses as we forgive those that tresspass against us." And in that
moment I thought of my sponsor, and forgave him. It unloaded that great
burdon I had been carrying for months from my shoulders. Now I can shake
his hand and honestly be a friend to him. He is not my sponsor anymore, and
I will not forget what happened. But I forgave him, and we are free from
fear.

I hope you stay sober today.

Shaw
to answer thequestion, yes. Always.

>
>
>

"catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:be91v1$eph$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> On the 17th May, Rosie posted the following:
>
> Daily Reflections
>
> . . . . AND FORGIVE
>
> Under very trying conditions I have had, again and again, to forgive
others--also myself.
> AS BILL SEE IT p. 268
>
> Forgiveness of self and forgiveness of others are just two currents in the
same river, both hindered
> or shut off completely by the dam of resentment. Once that dam is lifted,
both currents can flow.
> The Steps of A.A. allow me to see how resentment has built up and
subsequently blocked off this flow
> in my life. The Steps provide a way by which my resentments may - by the
grace of God as I
> understand Him - be lifted. It is as a result of this solution that I can
find the necessary grace
> which enables me to forgive myself and others.
>
> I am wondering whether Bill's idea that we should forgive others is meant
to be interpreted as
> forgiving others *no matter what they do to us*. If it is, then I don't
think that I would be able
> to do this. What I would prefer to do is to try to put things behind me
and in so doing, get on
> with the rest of my life.
>
> If the question of forgiveness is or has been a major issue for you, I
would love to hear from you.
>
> JB

We don't forgive others to condone what they do, but rather to release the
resentments einthin ourselves.
Make sense?

"rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:SvWNa.178223$Xl.2926075@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>> i have worked with many people who suffered SEXUAL abuse, who felt they
could not forgive, and my advise to most, is to
> wait.................just wait...................don't force a thing.
> there is NO RUSH, but there is alot of work to do, to bring them (the
victim) some resolve and feeling of safety and
> control.

And how is this on-topic for alcoholism?

But, since you brought it up....it points out what a twisted bag of crap you
really are. Telling someone there is "no rush" in working through
forgiveness is pure hogwash.

"No! Don't change MY diapers. I LIKE sitting in all this shit.".

"Moonraker" <moonrak9@bellsouth.net> wrote in message news:7VYNa.1$Qn6.0@fe03.atl2.webusenet.com...
>
> "rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:SvWNa.178223$Xl.2926075@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> >> i have worked with many people who suffered SEXUAL abuse,

<snip>

Rosie


> And how is this on-topic for alcoholism?
>
<snip>

Hi Moonraker,

You have strong opinions on many subjects. .I hope these extend to the question I posed. If they
do, would you like to share them with us ?

JB

"catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:be9o8i$kt$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> "Moonraker" <moonrak9@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:7VYNa.1$Qn6.0@fe03.atl2.webusenet.com...
> >
> > "rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:SvWNa.178223$Xl.2926075@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > >> i have worked with many people who suffered SEXUAL abuse,
>
> <snip>
>
> Rosie
>
>
> > And how is this on-topic for alcoholism?
> >
> <snip>
>
> Hi Moonraker,
>
> You have strong opinions on many subjects. .I hope these extend to the
question I posed. If they
> do, would you like to share them with us ?
>
> JB
>
>
Maybe...just "which" question are you referring to?

"catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:be9u1u$l0b$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> Is AA's Bill's idea that we should forgive others meant to be interpreted
as forgiving others *no
> matter what they do to us* ?
>
> JB

"We are not saints. The point is, we claim spiritual progress, not
spiritual perfection".

I think that would be the ideal situation... to forgive "everybody". In
reality, it may not be totally possible. I don't think you can forgive
until you forget, and I don't think you can forget until you forgive.
It's a conundrum.

the 4th and 5th steps have us looking at what part we played in the
situation. Sometimes we actually are just plain old victims...no doubt
about it. Other times, we had a part in it and we don't understand why
others react to us the way they did....until we begin to look at ourselves.

WE are told that resentments will get us drunk, and that's why we need to
forgive. Starting with yourself.

+++did this help? I hope so.++