GILL wrote:
> Ken wrote:
>> GILL wrote:
>>> Ken wrote:
>>>> Hello All,
>>>>
>>>> In a long post (Re: Alcoholics Anonymous challenged to take part in
>>>> an open debate, 11/21/2007) Gill accused me,
>>>>
>>>> "You cut/paste and write out of context, what, should I believe your
>>>> crap?"
>>>>
>>>> Aside from having no clue what he is talking about because I had cut
>>>> _nothing_ from the thread, here is the report from the New York
>>>> World Telegram on an interview with Frank B, Bill Wilson's and Dr.
>>>> Bob's spiritual leader.
>>>
>>> Wasn't talking about the thread you dork, I was talking about your so
>>> called book.
>>>
>>
>> Gill,
>>
>> So then I was correct that you didn't read it.
>>
>>>>
>>>> Nothing has been cut out which is probably just as well because it
>>>> sounds even worse in its entirety.
>>>>
>>>> I am awaiting further silly response from Gill to distract from the
>>>> issues at hand.
>>>
>>> What issue? That you have and underlying motive to attack AA?
>>
>> Telling the truth about AA is attacking AA? That is a very, very sad
>> defense but probably the best one you have
> You call pulling things out of history that have absolutely no relevance
> to AA truth?

Gill,

Do you really think that Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob's spiritual leader, the
Frank B. who came up with A.A.'s "spiritual principles" and who
essentially came up with the entire A.A. "program" was a total nutcase
is irrelevant to "AA truth"? I'm afraid that is the AA truth.

I think your displays of anger and frustration at criticism of your cult
are very revealing of the "AA truth."

> Why don't you point out anything in the book Alcoholics Anonymous that
> is causing all these murders and antisemitism you referred to.

Who said the Big Book "is causing all these murders and antisemitism"?
Most certainly, it is responsible, along with the local gurus, of
pushing a lot of people off into despair and suicide with their
Powerless crap, morbid introspection and waiting for divine
intervention, but "murders and antisemitism" is your attempt to create a
straw man.

However, keep it up and as time allows, I'll post some choice excerpts
from the official A.A. literature. :-)

>>> Let's see, you failed yourself trying AA.
>>
>> I failed? Wasn't AA supposed to help me stop drinking? How bizarre
>> to accuse those who resolve drinking problems far, far better without
>> A.A. of "failing A.A." Can you not see a serious problem with your
>> thinking?
> Oh, so your sober?

It depends what you mean by "sober." Most certainly I am not drunk.
However, "sober" in A.A. means much, much more than the Standard English
"not drunk." It means totally abstinent and "working a program of
recovery." Otherwise, one is on a "dry drunk."

I actually had three beers this month, the first drinks I have had this
time of year in a long time. While on a semi-vacation I had one with
dinner, and one on two other occasions after dinner with a family member
so I am "not sober" in Programese, the language of non-thought. But I am
most certainly doing absolutely fine except that I average _so_ far less
than the drink a day for health purposes or however much it is
considered to be now that if I wasn't critical of A.A., I would probably
be counted as a successful abstainer by a 12-Step "treatment" center.

> So in a newsgroup that on topic discussion should be RECOVERY from drugs
> and or alcohol you insist on bashing some of the members organized
> methods of support? That's a definition of a TROLL.

Here again you are using the "loaded language" typical of cults of all
types. You say the word "RECOVERY" (in all caps no less) and yet it is
unlikely any of the A.A.ers here have "recovered" unless purely by
accident. They are all just one drink away from suicidal drunks, aren't
they? They _never_ get well, do they?

Also, you refer to A.A. as "organized methods of support." What other
supposed "support groups" except for the 12-Step ones tell people that
normal human emotions are disease symptoms, separate members from the
rest of humanity ("earth people" or "normies" and "alcoholics" or
"addicts"), and tell people if they leave they will die? That is not
support. That is manipulation and control.

>>
>> Would you also argue that someone who doesn't get over pneumonia with
>> penicillin but does much, much better with another antibiotic has
>> "failed penicillin"?
>>
>> Unlike you, I'm trying to stay away from name-calling but there are a
>> few words that come to mind.
>>
>>> You and a bunch of other book sellers don't want the court system to
>>> send people to AA,
>>
>> What about the U.S. Circuit Courts that have made the rulings and the
>> U.S. Supreme Court which has chosen _not_ to challenge the Circuit
>> Courts' ruling that coercion into A.A. is illegal?
> What about it? Do you think AA WANTED all the court cards in AA?

Read this pamphlet from A.A. G.S.O.
A.A. Guidelines: Cooperating with Court D.W.I. and Similar Programs
http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org/...pwithcourt.pdf
explaining to A.A.s how to get the courts to coerce people to A.A. and
explain to me why A.A. is actively seeking coercees (and in
contradiction to the First Amendment) if they don't want court cards and
other forms of coercion from the courts.

> I guess
> the Judges can send them to some of your buddies to get their cards
> signed. Or you can visit them in jail to listen to how they were framed.

Who is talking about framed? In this country, it doesn't matter if
someone was framed or not. No one in this country is supposed to be
coerced into _any_ religious group. That is something that at one time
I though was long left behind with the Renaissance.

>>
>>> and some of these book writers just happen to have another way for
>>> alcoholics to get sober, right?
>>
>> Well, if you are going to call almost any way except AA, then I
>> suppose I have "another way."
> So you really have no other way, is that your message here? Oh yeah,
> "Look out, the murdering AAs are coming after the jews!"

Actually, I can give you a list of many other ways that work far better
than A.A. and will do so upon request since it isn't handy. However,
since _nothing_ works far better than A.A., I'm not sure why you think
it is necessary.

>>
>>> Oh, and all of the recovery hospitals and homes need to stop this
>>> spreading of Fascist followers and murderers.
>>
>> Hey, it isn't my fault that you are a follower of Frank B's so-called
>> "spiritual principles" sanitized to deceive the public. Nor is it my
>> fault that so many people die "waiting for the miracle" because they
>> have been convinced by the Steppers they are Powerless.
> It's our little secret.......shhhhhhhh... we eat the weaker ones.

Well, that is a rather "cute" way of saying what I heard many times at
meetings. When a member was pushed off into suicide or suicidal drinking
someone would always announce, "Some must die so others can live."

>>
>>> Wow, this sounds like a job for Homeland Security!
>>> Thanks for exposing this evil organization.
>>> Sorry for the silly response, it's just that your so silly.
>>
>> Actually, you are acting in a very, very predictable fashion. You
>> might want to take a look at an article title "Cult Busting" about how
>> cult members act when their cult is criticized at:
>> http://www.morerevealed.com/articles/cult_busting.jsp
> Hey you resemble some kooky conspiracy theorists. You may want to check
> your actions here: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory

Here you go again. Ozone to Gill. Ozone to Gill.
So you think A.A. isn't a religious cult that does more harm than good.
So what. No cult member doesn't believe the same about their own cult.

>>
>>> Enough from me.........Troll on
>>
>> Is only speaking with reverence of the codification of Oxford Group
>> spiritual principles, the Twelve Steps not trolling here? Is one only
>> allowed to speak of the resolution of drinking problems through the
>> adopting neo-Buchmanistic religion?
> You haven't done so one iota.

Nonsense. I have criticized the Oxford Group/12-Step "spiritual
principles" that use people being in trouble as leverage for conversion
to their religion quite a bit.

Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com/