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Re: Jews and the 12-step program
"wozza" <wozza96@_NO_SPAM_yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:42d3b5c5$0$6080$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au ...
> It's a religion. AA exists to bring people into Frank Buchman's sytem of
> belief and practice.
>
> It does matter what some judge said, becuase that becomes the law of the
> land. Very few people coming into AA will be told that "the distinction
> between religion and spirituality is meaningless, and serves merely to
> confuse the issue." I just want more "rigourous honesty" and less denial.
>
> AA ignores the question of Disease vs Conditioned behaviour (if indeed
> that is the right question to be asking), because AA's answer can't stand
> up to any kind of rational analysis. The insistence on the primacy of
> practice as against rational thought is the hallmark of cults everywhere.
>
> All the big book and steps have to offer is magic and superstition ("that
> is the miracle of it... so long as we keep in fit spiritual condition").
> As I always say, it works well for the lucky few for whom it works well.
> But the majority of people find it no help at all, and they deserve
> better.
>
> I go to AA meetings. Meeting with other alcoholics helps me somewhat.
> Other things help me also. My hope is that AA can outgrow its religious
> background, and truly offer something for everyone who seeks. That means
> giving up this insistence on religious faith as the only answer. The group
> I go to has done that. Perhaps yours has too.
>
>> Yep,
>>
>> It's a God thing -- not really Jewish or Christian or Hindu or Buddhist
>> or
>> Wiccan or Native American or a host of other "religions" -- but it is
>> indeedy a God thing.
>>
>> AA is not for everyone - It is not the only way one might get sober - AA
>> as
>> an organization says that AA does not have the "corner" on sobriety.
>> There
>> are and will always be those within AA and those not affiliated who might
>> tell you otherwise - that is less AA and more human nature. History and
>> Science has not finitely defined the answer to the question of Disease or
>> Conditioned Behavior, but there are those who will argue otherwise until
>> "hell freezes over." As a group, we have found the answer to that
>> question
>> is less meaningful as the action required to overcome the problem.
>>
>> As the loosely designed organization that we are, we are still little
>> more
>> than thousands of groups of nameless alcoholics who have found a way to
>> keep
>> each other sober. We truly have little more to offer than this program
>> of
>> 12 steps and our own experience, strength and hope. As alcoholics, many
>> of
>> have been where others are and found a way out. We have found among
>> ourselves we basically selfish, self-centered lot and, that ultimately,
>> this
>> selfish and self-centered thought and behavior was and is the cause of
>> most,
>> if not all, of our problems in dealing with the people around us.
>>
>> We have found in our belief that there is a power greater than ourselves
>> that we could be restored to sanity. As individuals and as a group, we
>> are
>> unwilling to turn to another human being as this higher power, so yes, we
>> turn to God - a God of our individual understanding. For me the belief
>> is
>> more about acceptance and less about reliance; although, there are many
>> who
>> argue otherwise.
>>
>> As vehemently as Ken Ragge, the alocure publishers and wozza will argue
>> that
>> AA will not help you get sober - there are others who will argue that AA
>> is
>> the only way to get sober. I have these folks to simply be two faces of
>> the
>> same coin. For these folks everything must either be A or B, with
>> nothing
>> in between.
>> Oh, were life so simple.... I have learned in my AA experience that
>> nothing in life is so well defined as "Black or White" -- we exist within
>> the thousands of Greys that lie between the radicals and the
>> reactionaries -- both of whom I personally have little use for.
>>
>> Ultimately, I think it matters little what some judge somewhere said --
>> it
>> will not increase or decrease the number of alcoholics nor the number of
>> people in AA or any other program of recovery. However, it is a
>> wonderful
>> topic for a bunch of selfish, self-centered megalomaniacs to waste time
>> discussing. It is so much more interesting than getting about the
>> business
>> of getting sober.
>>
>> There are many kinds of sobriety out there.... I suggest you had better
>> pick
>> on you like. And if AAs odds are 1 in 20 -- it's gotta be the best game
>> in
>> town.
>>
>> Bobby L
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:zGlAe.58856$Tt.50521@bignews3.bellsouth.net.. .
>>
>> "wozza" <wozza96@_NO_SPAM_yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:42d10d11$0$20857$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...
>>> tell it to the judge...
>>>
>>> did you read what I posted? Could you really not understand it?. Here it
>> is
>>> again in case you missed it:
>>> In the case of Grandberg v. Ashland County, a 1984 Federal 7th Circuit
>> Court
>>> ruling concerning judicially-mandated A.A. attendance, the court said:
>>> "Alcoholics Anonymous materials and the testimony of the witness
>> established
>>> beyond a doubt that religious activities, as defined in constitutional
>> law,
>>> were a part of the treatment program. The distinction between religion
>>> and
>>> spirituality is meaningless, and serves merely to confuse the issue." --
>>> Wisconsin's District Judge John Shabaz
>>>
>>> Which part of that do you not understand?
>>>
>>> What about your own definition? Did you not read it before you posted
>>> it?
>>> The second sense of spiritual actually does say, religious. All three
>> senses
>>> of religion you quoted sum up AA pretty well. If really "there is a
>>> difference", you won't find it in AA.
>>>
>>> Came to believe in a power greater than ourselves?
>>> Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God?
>>> Admitted to God our wrongs?
>>> Humbly asked Him?
>>> Sought through prayer and medition to improve our conscious contact?
>>> Knowledge of his will? Power to carry that out?
>>> Having had a spiritual awakening?
>>>
>>> Much better to take this advice from the big book:
>>> "Upon therapy for the alcoholic himself, surely we have no monopoly"
>>> "Our book is meant to be suggestive only. We realise we know only a
>> little"
>>>
>>>
>>> "Rob & Laura Frazier" <rflf@machlink.com> wrote in message
>>> news:11cuqcc8ok5g1f0@corp.supernews.com...
>>> > spiritual
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > spir·i·tu·al [ spírrichoo ?l ]
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > adjective
>>> >
>>> > 1. of soul: relating to the soul or spirit, usually
>>> > in
>>> > contrast to material things
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > 2. of religion: relating to religious or sacred
>>> > things
>>> > rather than worldly things
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > 3. temperamentally or intellectually akin: connected
>>> > by
>>> > an
>>> > affinity of the mind, spirit, or temperament
>>> > spiritual mother of the young artist
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > 4. refined: showing great refinement and concern with
>> the
>>> > higher things in life
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > re·li·gion [ ri líjj?n ] (plural
>> re·li·gions)
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > noun
>>> >
>>> > 1. beliefs and worship: people's beliefs
>> and
>>> > opinions concerning the existence, nature, and worship of a deity or
>>> > deities, and divine involvement in the universe and human life
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > 2. system: an institutionalized or
>>> > personal
>>> > system of beliefs and practices relating to the divine
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > 3. personal beliefs or values: a set of
>>> > strongly-held beliefs, values, and attitudes that somebody lives by
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > There is a difference
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Encarta® World English Dictionary [North American Edition] © &
>>> > (P)2005
>>> > Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Developed for Microsoft by
>>> > Bloomsbury Publishing Plc.
>>> >
>>> > More Links from Our Advertisers
>>> > SAT Prep
>>> > Distance Learning
>>> > Education Online
>>> > Tutoring
>>> > Online MBA
>>> > Textbook
>>> >
>>> > >>Back to more links from Our Advertisers
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>> > From: "wozza" <wozza96@_NO_SPAM_yahoo.com>
>>> > Newsgroups: alt.recovery.addiction.alcoholism
>>> > Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2005 4:56 AM
>>> > Subject: Re: Jews and the 12-step program
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >>> "wozza" <wozza96@_NO_SPAM_yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> >>> news:42b68d46$0$13943$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...
>>> >>>> "rosie read n' post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> >>>> news:iuite.16267$lI2.7345@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>>> >>>> > RELIGION is for those who are afraid of hell..................
>>> >>>> > SPIRITUALITY is for those who have been there!
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> > imo, AA is not a religion.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Unfortunately, your opinion counts for zilch, but the opinions of
>>> >>>> are
>>> >>> worth
>>> >>>> taking notice.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> A.A. claims that it is a "spiritual" organization, and not
>>> >>> "religious", and
>>> >>>> not a religion, but there is no great difference between the words
>>> >>>> "religious" and "spiritual." The distinction is artificial -- just
>>> >>> another
>>> >>>> deceptive word game.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> In the case of Grandberg v. Ashland County, a 1984 Federal 7th
>> Circuit
>>> >>> Court
>>> >>>> ruling concerning judicially-mandated A.A. attendance, the court
>> said:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Alcoholics Anonymous materials and the testimony of the witness
>>> >>> established
>>> >>>> beyond a doubt that religious activities, as defined in
>> constitutional
>>> >>> law,
>>> >>>> were a part of the treatment program. The distinction between
>> religion
>>> >>> and
>>> >>>> spirituality is meaningless, and serves merely to confuse the
>>> >>>> issue.
>>> >>>> -- Wisconsin's District Judge John Shabaz
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> All of these courts have ruled that Alcoholics Anonymous is a
>> religion
>>> >>> or
>>> >>>> engages in religious activities:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> the Federal 7th Circuit Court in Wisconsin, 1984.
>>> >>>> the Federal District Court for Southern New York, 1994.
>>> >>>> the New York Court of Appeals, 1996.
>>> >>>> the New York State Supreme Court, 1996.
>>> >>>> the U.S. Supreme Court, 1997.
>>> >>>> the Tennessee State Supreme Court.
>>> >>>> the Federal 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals in New York, 1996.
>>> >>>> the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit.
>>> >>>> the U.S. Court of Appeals, Seventh District, 1996.
>>> >>>> the Federal Appeals Court in Chicago, 1996.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> The United States Supreme Court has refused to hear challenges to
>>> >>> those
>>> >>>> rulings, or to change or over-turn those lower court decisions. By
>>> >>> letting
>>> >>>> them stand, the Supreme Court has made them the law of the land.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> But there is one very important exception to that statement -- the
>>> >>> Griffin
>>> >>>> v. Coughlin decision, from the New York State Court of Appeals,
>>> >>>> 1996,
>>> >>> was
>>> >>>> heard by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1997.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> In Griffin v. Coughlin, the prison inmate David Griffin complained
>>> >>> that
>>> >>>> state prison officials in 1991 told David Griffin, a self-described
>>> >>> atheist
>>> >>>> with a history of drug abuse, that in order to be eligible for
>>> >>> expanded
>>> >>>> family visitation privileges, including conjugal visits, he would
>> have
>>> >>> to
>>> >>>> attend a prison rehabilitation program patterned after AA's 12-step
>>> >>> model.2
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Griffin, then a prisoner at the Shawangunk Correctional Facility in
>>> >>> Ulster
>>> >>>> County, refused to attend the program, contending that the 12-step
>>> >>> approach
>>> >>>> requires participants to express a belief in a "power greater than
>>> >>>> ourselves" and to "turn our will and our lives over to the care of
>> God
>>> >>> as we
>>> >>>> understood him." These requirements, his lawsuit against the state
>>> >>>> contended, violate the First Amendment's mandated separation of
>> church
>>> >>> and
>>> >>>> state.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Griffin lost in two lower courts, but won in New York State's
>>> >>>> highest
>>> >>> court,
>>> >>>> the New York Court of Appeals.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> In Griffin v. Coughlin, Judge Levine, writing for the court's
>>> >>> majority,
>>> >>>> concluded that the AA program is devoted to proselytizing for a
>>> >>> religious
>>> >>>> belief. The court's conclusion was based on its reading of several
>>> >>> profiles
>>> >>>> of early AA members as they are set forth in the AA Big Book and
>>> >>>> the
>>> >>> AA
>>> >>>> Twelve and Twelve.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Judge Levine said "While it is of course true that the primary
>>> >>> objective of
>>> >>>> A.A. is to enable its adherents to achieve sobriety, its doctrine
>>> >>>> unmistakably urges that the path to staying sober and to becoming
>>> >>> happily
>>> >>>> and usefully whole is by wholeheartedly embracing traditional
>> theistic
>>> >>>> beliefs."
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> From its review of AA literature, the majority concluded that the
>>> >>>> AA
>>> >>> Twelve
>>> >>>> Steps amount to a worship service and that the AA fellowship is
>>> >>> dedicated to
>>> >>>> converting alcoholics to a belief in a traditional deity.
>> Accordingly,
>>> >>> the
>>> >>>> court found that, "The foregoing demonstrates beyond peradventure
>> that
>>> >>>> doctrinally and as actually practiced in the 12-step methodology,
>>> >>> adherence
>>> >>>> to the A.A. fellowship entails engagement in religious activity and
>>> >>>> religious proselytization. Followers are urged to accept the
>> existence
>>> >>> of
>>> >>>> God as a Supreme Being, Creator, Father of Light and Spirit of the
>>> >>>> Universe."
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> When the U.S. Supreme Court heard the appeal, it sided with the
>>> >>> atheist
>>> >>>> convict who said the New York Department of Corrections' attempt to
>>> >>> link
>>> >>>> extra privileges for inmates with attendance at meetings modeled
>> after
>>> >>>> Alcoholics Anonymous violated the constitutionally mandated
>> separation
>>> >>> of
>>> >>>> church and state.3
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> On November 14, 1999 the U.S. Supreme Court refused to overturn,
>>> >>>> thus
>>> >>>> allowed to stand, a ruling by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the
>> Second
>>> >>>> Circuit ordering that forced attendance at Narcotics Anonymous
>>> >>> meetings end
>>> >>>> immediately, because it was a violation of Freedom of Religion. The
>>> >>> U.S.
>>> >>>> Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit and the high courts of the
>>> >>> states
>>> >>>> of Tennessee and New York have also made the same ruling.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> -- quoted from http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-spirrel.html
>>> >>>>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>> you clearly have your opinions, as i have
>> mine..........................
>>> >>> with the help of AA and my HP i will celebrate 23yrs of sobriety in
>>> >>> august.
>>> >>> AA has helped me to have a whole new life.
>>> >>
>>> >> Sorry, I really botched the first line. What I meant to say was the
>>> >> opinions of the courts are what matter, because they make the laws.
>> Then
>>> >> I
>>> >> quoted someone else's summary of many court decisions where AA was
>> ruled
>>> >> to be a religion. Note no court anywhere has ever ruled AA is not a
>>> >> religion.
>>> >>
>>> >> I'm glad AA has helped you have a whole new life. The steps work well
>> for
>>> >> the lucky few for whom they work well. But what I care about is for
>> every
>>> >> one of you, there are 20 who aren't helped. That's the tragedy of
>>> >> AA's
>>> >> religious program.
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> > "wozza" <wozza96@_NO_SPAM_yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> > news:42ba8916$0$24005$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...
>>> >>> "wozza" <wozza96@_NO_SPAM_yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> >>> news:42b68d46$0$13943$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...
>>> >>>> "rosie read n' post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> >>>> news:iuite.16267$lI2.7345@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>>> >>>> > RELIGION is for those who are afraid of hell..................
>>> >>>> > SPIRITUALITY is for those who have been there!
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> > imo, AA is not a religion.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Unfortunately, your opinion counts for zilch, but the opinions of
>>> >>>> are
>>> >>> worth
>>> >>>> taking notice.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> A.A. claims that it is a "spiritual" organization, and not
>>> >>> "religious", and
>>> >>>> not a religion, but there is no great difference between the words
>>> >>>> "religious" and "spiritual." The distinction is artificial -- just
>>> >>> another
>>> >>>> deceptive word game.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> In the case of Grandberg v. Ashland County, a 1984 Federal 7th
>> Circuit
>>> >>> Court
>>> >>>> ruling concerning judicially-mandated A.A. attendance, the court
>> said:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Alcoholics Anonymous materials and the testimony of the witness
>>> >>> established
>>> >>>> beyond a doubt that religious activities, as defined in
>> constitutional
>>> >>> law,
>>> >>>> were a part of the treatment program. The distinction between
>> religion
>>> >>> and
>>> >>>> spirituality is meaningless, and serves merely to confuse the
>>> >>>> issue.
>>> >>>> -- Wisconsin's District Judge John Shabaz
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> All of these courts have ruled that Alcoholics Anonymous is a
>> religion
>>> >>> or
>>> >>>> engages in religious activities:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> the Federal 7th Circuit Court in Wisconsin, 1984.
>>> >>>> the Federal District Court for Southern New York, 1994.
>>> >>>> the New York Court of Appeals, 1996.
>>> >>>> the New York State Supreme Court, 1996.
>>> >>>> the U.S. Supreme Court, 1997.
>>> >>>> the Tennessee State Supreme Court.
>>> >>>> the Federal 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals in New York, 1996.
>>> >>>> the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit.
>>> >>>> the U.S. Court of Appeals, Seventh District, 1996.
>>> >>>> the Federal Appeals Court in Chicago, 1996.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> The United States Supreme Court has refused to hear challenges to
>>> >>> those
>>> >>>> rulings, or to change or over-turn those lower court decisions. By
>>> >>> letting
>>> >>>> them stand, the Supreme Court has made them the law of the land.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> But there is one very important exception to that statement -- the
>>> >>> Griffin
>>> >>>> v. Coughlin decision, from the New York State Court of Appeals,
>>> >>>> 1996,
>>> >>> was
>>> >>>> heard by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1997.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> In Griffin v. Coughlin, the prison inmate David Griffin complained
>>> >>> that
>>> >>>> state prison officials in 1991 told David Griffin, a self-described
>>> >>> atheist
>>> >>>> with a history of drug abuse, that in order to be eligible for
>>> >>> expanded
>>> >>>> family visitation privileges, including conjugal visits, he would
>> have
>>> >>> to
>>> >>>> attend a prison rehabilitation program patterned after AA's 12-step
>>> >>> model.2
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Griffin, then a prisoner at the Shawangunk Correctional Facility in
>>> >>> Ulster
>>> >>>> County, refused to attend the program, contending that the 12-step
>>> >>> approach
>>> >>>> requires participants to express a belief in a "power greater than
>>> >>>> ourselves" and to "turn our will and our lives over to the care of
>> God
>>> >>> as we
>>> >>>> understood him." These requirements, his lawsuit against the state
>>> >>>> contended, violate the First Amendment's mandated separation of
>> church
>>> >>> and
>>> >>>> state.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Griffin lost in two lower courts, but won in New York State's
>>> >>>> highest
>>> >>> court,
>>> >>>> the New York Court of Appeals.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> In Griffin v. Coughlin, Judge Levine, writing for the court's
>>> >>> majority,
>>> >>>> concluded that the AA program is devoted to proselytizing for a
>>> >>> religious
>>> >>>> belief. The court's conclusion was based on its reading of several
>>> >>> profiles
>>> >>>> of early AA members as they are set forth in the AA Big Book and
>>> >>>> the
>>> >>> AA
>>> >>>> Twelve and Twelve.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Judge Levine said "While it is of course true that the primary
>>> >>> objective of
>>> >>>> A.A. is to enable its adherents to achieve sobriety, its doctrine
>>> >>>> unmistakably urges that the path to staying sober and to becoming
>>> >>> happily
>>> >>>> and usefully whole is by wholeheartedly embracing traditional
>> theistic
>>> >>>> beliefs."
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> From its review of AA literature, the majority concluded that the
>>> >>>> AA
>>> >>> Twelve
>>> >>>> Steps amount to a worship service and that the AA fellowship is
>>> >>> dedicated to
>>> >>>> converting alcoholics to a belief in a traditional deity.
>> Accordingly,
>>> >>> the
>>> >>>> court found that, "The foregoing demonstrates beyond peradventure
>> that
>>> >>>> doctrinally and as actually practiced in the 12-step methodology,
>>> >>> adherence
>>> >>>> to the A.A. fellowship entails engagement in religious activity and
>>> >>>> religious proselytization. Followers are urged to accept the
>> existence
>>> >>> of
>>> >>>> God as a Supreme Being, Creator, Father of Light and Spirit of the
>>> >>>> Universe."
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> When the U.S. Supreme Court heard the appeal, it sided with the
>>> >>> atheist
>>> >>>> convict who said the New York Department of Corrections' attempt to
>>> >>> link
>>> >>>> extra privileges for inmates with attendance at meetings modeled
>> after
>>> >>>> Alcoholics Anonymous violated the constitutionally mandated
>> separation
>>> >>> of
>>> >>>> church and state.3
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> On November 14, 1999 the U.S. Supreme Court refused to overturn,
>>> >>>> thus
>>> >>>> allowed to stand, a ruling by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the
>> Second
>>> >>>> Circuit ordering that forced attendance at Narcotics Anonymous
>>> >>> meetings end
>>> >>>> immediately, because it was a violation of Freedom of Religion. The
>>> >>> U.S.
>>> >>>> Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit and the high courts of the
>>> >>> states
>>> >>>> of Tennessee and New York have also made the same ruling.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> -- quoted from http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-spirrel.html
>>> >>>>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>> you clearly have your opinions, as i have
>> mine..........................
>>> >>> with the help of AA and my HP i will celebrate 23yrs of sobriety in
>>> >>> august.
>>> >>> AA has helped me to have a whole new life.
>>> >>
>>> >> Sorry, I really botched the first line. What I meant to say was the
>>> >> opinions of the courts are what matter, because they make the laws.
>> Then
>>> >> I quoted someone else's summary of many court decisions where AA was
>>> >> ruled to be a religion. Note no court anywhere has ever ruled AA is
>>> >> not
>> a
>>> >> religion.
>>> >>
>>> >> I'm glad AA has helped you have a whole new life. The steps work well
>> for
>>> >> the lucky few for whom they work well. But what I care about is for
>> every
>>> >> one of you, there are 20 who aren't helped. That's the tragedy of
>>> >> AA's
>>> >> religious program.
I also believe that we must listen to the court system, for it is part of my
sentence to attend aa meetings and to provide proff of attendance
I also believe we must listen to our health proffesionals, who also send
many of their patience to aa for rehab and request records of their
attendance We may not be able to pray in public places for it infringes on
people rights of relgion.But that same system supports aa as a possible
solution for many. Yes 1 of 20 seems low but i would suspect that is in part
due to the amount of drug and alcohol patience who attend only to please the
courts and\or the medical proffesion, not because they have a genuine desire
to stop using. I'm don't know much of the Jewish religion or for any other
for that matter, but doesn't the Jewish religion believe in "God" or a
"Creator"? Just curious about that because I really don't know the answer.
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>
>
>
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