Bill Alsobrook wrote:
>>Here is part of the solution. Stop spreading ideas that make drinking
>>problems worse. Certain cultures (like the English and the Irish) have
>>more severe drinking problems. These are cultures that attribute great
>>power to alcohol ("Devil Drink," "Demon Rum" or "John Barleycorn calling
>>from the mantel piece"). Other cultures where drinking problems are rare
>>(like the Jewish culture) don't believe in "Powerlessness" (especially
>>with a capital "P") but due believe in personal responsibility and the
>>ability to make choices even though they may be difficult.
>
>
> Ken you seem to be a tad bit more educated than me, after all after I got
> out of engineering school I moved under a bridge and decided to completely
> forget that I had a 155 IQ. But where in this little quote do the American
> Indians and a majority of all aboriginal tribes fit into this. Maybe I am
> just a complete dumb ass here, but the American Indians, the group I am
> going to focus on here, never has any concept of Powerlessness and had no
> clue what Alcohol was prior to its introduction by European descendents,
> right? Or in some way did AA get involved here early and promote this idea,
> oh wait that would have been way to early for AA, it most have been the
> Oxford Group.
>
> My name is Bill, and I am an Alcoholic.

Hi Bill, My name is Ken and I am a human being.

As far as IQ goes, a higher IQ is an excellent measure of who will do
well in school. I'm not sure it is any indication whatsoever how one
will do out of school, on one's own with no one telling you what to do.
I suppose autonomy is not at all part of the IQ measure.

I think you are correct. I, too, have absolutely no reason to believe
that the native Americans had the 12-Step concept of Powerlessness.
Native Americans (both north and south) dealt with alcohol differently,
depending on the particular cultural group. Many of them made it a part
of religious ceremonies. Some groups drank reaonably. Some drank like
"drunken Indians." It depended on the particular culture. It has been
years since I've read any of the studies, but an example of "no problem"
would be a tribe like the Navajo or Hopi. They did fine for centuries
after alcohol was introduced and if a problem did arise, it was after
destruction of their culture.

Being a member of a culture very tied to the land and then being driven
off by powerful outsiders I would think would certainly make one feel
hopeless, powerless. Of course, 12-Step "Powerless" is a bit different.
It is generally manufactured and built on a failure to sense, and
being steered from sensing, one's own power.

I don't believe a native American driven off land that his family has
farmed for centuries, maybe his family killed, is in the same boat as
the person who has the manufactured "spiritual" powerlessness. But in
the sense of looking for "an easy way out" (drinking, drugging) it is
the same.

AA didn't come up with anything. They borrowed everything from the
Fundamentalist religious right, Buchmanism to be exact.

Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com


> "Ken Ragge" <ken@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:O46dnUfeef-dxzLfRVn-pQ@comcast.com...
>
>>dan mcgown wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Ken Ragge" <ken@nospam.com> wrote in message
>>>news:fNednXmO0N1S1zLfRVn-og@comcast.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>>dan mcgown wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"Ken Ragge" <ken@nospam.com> wrote in message
>>>>>news:NO6dnU0QCKUNtjLfRVn-3w@comcast.com...
>>>>>
>>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>Dan,
>>>>
>>>>If I am to get you right, if I am to take you at your word, you don't
>>>>care if the leaders of the 12-Step "fellowship" you support (e.g. by
>>>>carrying the message, attacking critics) conspires with the courts to get
>>>>government coercion into your relgious group, you just don't care.
>>>>
>>>>Of course, being a good 12-Stepper, with your "concious contact with God"
>>>>and all that from working the Steps, you have no concern whatsoever with
>>>>the First Amendmant, freedom of relgion, freedom of association and such
>>>>trivialites.
>>>>
>>>>Ken Ragge
>>>>http://www.morerevealed.com
>>>
>>>
>>> Your logic is as bad as your spelling and that is atrocious. I
>>>don't support the "12 step leaders." I don't even know who they are.
>>
>>Dan,
>>
>>Okay, my logic is bad. You support a "fellowship," don't know who the
>>leaders are, and so you don't support the leadership. Is that like a, say
>>for example, a Fundamentalist Christian who attends services at the Church
>>of God every Sunday, puts a buck in the basket and says how wonderful the
>>church is somehow not supporting the leadership?
>>
>>I am well aware, that in a normal religious group, people know who their
>>leaders are. Just because Step groups call them "public servants" doesn't
>>make them any more-or-less leaders.
>>
>>
>>>I have never made a blanket endorsement of the AA organization. I have
>>>"carried the message" that working the 12 steps has been good for me but
>>>I have also "carried the message" that if something else works for you
>>>then do it and tell us about it.
>>
>>If you had a wife suffered morning sickness in the 50s and Thalidomide
>>cured it and you got lucky and she didn't have a "flipper baby," would you
>>be blind to the side effects, refuse to hear about them, and tell others,
>>Thalidomide worked for her.
>>
>>
>>> The main thing is that I don't attack people who are merely critics
>>>of AA. I do criticize people who merely attack AA, if you are capable of
>>>seeing the difference. You are on a different plane from simple critics.
>>>You spread dogmatic, unthinking bile and vitriol. If AA's success rate
>>>soared to 99%, instead of being glad that people were stopping drinking,
>>>you would be angry that it was AA doing it.
>>
>>If AA's success rate soared to 99% instead of its miserable 3% or so . . .
>>Well, if frogs had wings . . .
>>
>>
>>
>>> I am a skeptic. I don't swallow all of the AA dogma. I don't get
>>>as much out of meetings as some claim to get. I don't buy into the tie
>>>to religion.
>>
>>You don't "buy into the tie to religion"? What does that mean? You are
>>trying to restart a group that centers around the 12-Steps which are the
>>method of finding God and the group is not religious? Of course, I
>>undertand this is a learned response, "brainwashing" to be more exact, but
>>don't you understand how ludicrous it is to say that AA is not religious?
>>
>>What do you think "pray for knowledge of God's Will for us and the power
>>to carry that out" means? Do you think "We can go to any church we want
>>to?" makes it non-religious? If that is so, so is Billy Graham and his
>>crusade.
>>
>>
>>>***BUT*** I have never seen any of the coercive crap that you blather
>>>about except for the fact that some courts will require meetings as part
>>>of probation.
>>
>>What does the above sentence mean? It reads like you are saying that you
>>have never seen any of the coercive crap except for the coercive crap.
>>
>>
>>> Guess what, stud -- criminal sanctions, whether jail or probation
>>>are supposed to be coercive. That's what criminal sanctions are for.
>>>They are also supposed to be tailored to try to rehabilitate the
>>>criminal. If a judge has a repeat DUI offender where do you expect the
>>>judge to send him? To a bar? Or do you just want the judge to waive his
>>>finger sternly and say: "Just say no to drink."
>>
>>There is that black and white Stepper thinking. Either sentence them to
>>AA or a bar, huh? Those are the two choices?
>>
>>While the court is supposed to have a great deal of power over people
>>under judicial sanctions, it is illegal, against the U.S. Constitution, to
>>force relgion on them.
>>
>>
>>> All that I have ever seen you do in here is attack AA. Okay, take
>>>it as read that AA is flawed. Stop the ranting about AA and tell us how
>>>you think the problem should be solved. -- and hey, if you don't have an
>>>alternative solution to offer then shut the hell up.
>>
>>Here is part of the solution. Stop spreading ideas that make drinking
>>problems worse. Certain cultures (like the English and the Irish) have
>>more severe drinking problems. These are cultures that attribute great
>>power to alcohol ("Devil Drink," "Demon Rum" or "John Barleycorn calling
>>from the mantel piece"). Other cultures where drinking problems are rare
>>(like the Jewish culture) don't believe in "Powerlessness" (especially
>>with a capital "P") but due believe in personal responsibility and the
>>ability to make choices even though they may be difficult.
>>
>>Isolating people and filling them up with warmed over Buchmanism makes the
>>problem worse.
>>
>>Ken Ragge
>>http://www.morerevealed.com
>
>
>