pookie wrote:

> "Ken Ragge" <ken@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:hc6dnYLQV-auuDLfRVn-2w@comcast.com...
>
>>Dan McGown wrote:
>
>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>
>>>Ken,
>>> I continue to be surprised at the extreme nature of your views on AA
>>>and at the way that you insert them into each and every discussion.
>>
>>Dan,
>>
>>I'm surprised that you are suprised at someone expressing views critical
>>of AA on a thread that is on alt.recovery.from-12-steps.
>
>
> This thread is on other ngs besides alt.recovery.from-12-steps, and I agree
> with Dan, you are more than just 'critical' of AA. You sound like what you
> accuse them of being!
>
>
>>Please
>>
>>>note that Chris had already said that he wasn't going to AA and didn't
>>>intend to do so. There is no reason to offer him one of your aluminum
>>>foil hats to keep out the AA brain control microwaves.
>>> Even if he went to some meetings it would not be necessary. I go to
>>>one meeting a week. It's the one that I am trying to revive at the Pride
>>>Center. No one tries to draw me into other meetings. No one shuns me
>>>for disagreeing with them. If they did, it would be self defeating. I
>>>would choose to be shunned by someone who would choose to shun me.
>>
>>You are a grouper working his 12th Step very admirably, trying to
>>resuscitate a meeting. Why would they shun you? What do you think
>>groupers are _supposed_ to do?
>
>
>>If you were to announce with resolution that you don't believe in AA
>>anymore and were going to go to SMART or anywhere else, then there are
>>grounds for some serious shunning.
>>
>>
>>> What in the world happened to you that started you on this crusade?
>>
>>What makes you so sure something happened to me? Why is every criticism
>>of God's Program somehow turned around on the critic? Where does this
>>"Kill the messenger" philosophy come from? No need to answer.
>
>
> What "Kill the messenger" philosophy? To start acting toward your group as
> you are acting about AA, that would be turning it around on the critic. He
> simply asked a question that I'm sure a few people (including myself) are
> interested in the answer to, what happened at AA to start you on being so
> venomous about them?
>
>
>>Since you are so not afraid of being shunned by the Groupers, why not
>>let's discuss coercion into the Step group.
>>
>>The groups are a program of attraction, not promotion. Since this is so,
>>and AA is beyond criticism, can you explain this page from the offical AA
>>website?
>>
>>http://www.aa.org/default/en_pdfs/mg...pwithcourt.pdf
>
>
> Nowhere has anyone said that AA is beyond criticism. IMO it by itself is not
> a perfect plan for recovery, there aren't any of those. A lot of people who
> attend AA end up using again.

Pookie,

Well, according to Harvare psychiatrist, former AA board-member and
Al-Anon member George Vaillant's own research, yes AA is not perfect.
As a matter of fact, when reporting on his own research, he found the
results "abysmal" and the death rate "appalling." Of course, in his
"impartial, scientific" book on alcoholism (he never mentioned his
Step-group membership) he goes on to recommend everyone be sent to AA.

More than a lot of people end up using again. Almost _all_ end up using
again. Yes, around 3% or so is not _all_.

> And what is there to explain about the page?
> AA attempts to 'attract' people by showing them what they have to offer.

AA attempts to 'attract' people by getting the courts to make them go.
That is not attraction, that is coercion and the page is proof AA's
collusion in forcing such coercion.

AA got the coerion started. AA works to expand and keep the coercion
going. AA laments there is nothing they can do. Program of attaction
is just a slogan good groupers chant.

> They do not 'promote' themselves like some other facility might do,
> advertising on billboards or telephone poles, or putting commericials on the
> radio and tv.

Actually, some intergroups do actually use radio and TV advertising.
But then I guess there is no reason to believe an AA intergroup is AA.
Nothing else made up of and done by AA members seems to have anything to
do with AA.

> Because they have no control over what other programs require
> of people (like someone on probation being forced to attend meetings) does
> not mean they support that idea. What are they supposed to do, tell the
> state gov or whoever "oh no, that person can't come in, you can't make
> people on probation come here"?

They could start by stopping going to the courts to get people coerced
into their "program of attraction."

> AA refuses no one who comes in, regardless
> of why they're there.
>

Actually, that is not quite true. What do you think a closed meeting is?

Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com


> Pookie
>
> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
> The only true wisdom is in knowing that you
> know nothing.
>
> Socrates
> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
>
>