"rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message news:<UIBKa.155879$jT4.2766595@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>...
> "pauly" <paul.youles@REMOVETHISvirgin.net> wrote in message news:mOqKa.2420$wb2.1798@newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net...
> > it does seem rosie, if you take this at face value, that getting no
> > treatment is better than using any 12 step model.
>
>
> NO treatment?
> we were discussing what was, to date, the most successful treatment.
>
> (remember though, that all the statistics gathered and just that, statistics!)

No, it is not the most successful treatment program.
It is one of the worst. Read the file.
http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-effectiveness.html

And while you may choose to laugh at statistics, I began that file
with this quote, which is still quite true:

'After all, facts are facts, and although we may
quote one to another with a chuckle the words of
the Wise Statesman, "Lies - damn lies - and statistics,"
still there are some easy figures the simplest must
understand, and the astutest cannot wriggle out of.'
Leonard Henry Courtney, the British economist and
politician (1832-1918), later Lord Courtney,
New York, August 1895.

A zero percent success rate, for instance, is a zero
percent success rate. Undeniably, a program with such
a low success rate cannot be the most successful
program in the world.

And while you are claiming that A.A. is the most successful
program, please supply some hard numbers -- yes, statistics --
to back up that claim. In your opinion, exactly what
success rate does A.A. have?

Bill Wilson's claims in the Big Book of "Rarely have we
seen a person fail..." are obviously untrue.
So are his claims that 50% recovered. That was false.
See:
http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-ef...l#Bob_memorial

So just what success rate do you claim for A.A.?

* agent_orange@linuxmail.org *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://aorange1.tripod.com/ *
* Heisenberg said, "I'm not really sure if *
* that even was Shroedinger's cat. I think *
* he might have used somebody else's cat..." *